slowguy wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
slowguy wrote:
Yeeper wrote:
slowguy wrote:
Quote:
A grown adult was careless and made some very bad decisions breaking the laws of a draconian state and you're saying she should have been able to anticipate the consequences but that she's not responsible for them?
I'm really only going to type this one more time, because we're either talking past each other, or you're deliberately leaving out parts of what I'm saying. She's responsible for her actions but not 100% responsible for the consequences. If she jumped off a cliff, and there was no other entity contributing to her falling, then she would be 100% responsible for the consequences. But in the case of her detention in Russia, there was very obviously another major entity involved, if not several.
Correct we must be at an impasse because I don’t see anyone else having contributed to her going over the cliff!
Nobody else pushed her off the cliff, but the Russians did a whole lot to speed her fall, and dug a hole at the bottom to make the fall deeper than one might have expected.
It goes back to the analogy of the rape victim. Nobody pushed her off the cliff (i.e. nobody made her go somewhere unsafe), but someone sure as hell did take advantage of her fall and make it a hell of a lot worse.
If you're going to say the rape victim is "100% responsible for the consequences of her choices" then yeah, we're at an impasse.
These are false equivalencies. While it’s imperative for people to avoid dangerous situations, a woman getting raped for doing nothing in particular is vastly different than someone who is doing something illegal and then suffering the consequences of those illegal actions.
A woman at a club dressed provacatively isn’t the same as breaking the law. Let’s not confuse those two situations and degrees of responsibility.
I made an analogy. That’s not the same thing as an equivalency.
Why are you so hesitant to admit people can make mistakes and be responsible for the situation they put themself in? That doesn’t absolve others from committing worse offenses against the individual. And it doesn’t even mean that you can’t feel sympathetic for them and reassure them it was an honest mistake.
But there’s a reason we give children more rope than adults. Adults know better.
The rape analogy is very difficult. Because most of us understand or have used the phrase “fuck around and find out.”
“You’re cruising for a bruisin”
“You’re asking for it”
“They had it coming”
“You’re playing with fire.”
“You instigated it”
Etc.
“Dont do that…stop doing that..you know what’s going to happen…aaaand too late. It’s your own fault.”
Sex and rape are taboo. In almost every other situation we don’t hesitate to tell people they put themselves in a situation and are at fault. Even if someone else does something worse to them. We don’t absolve blame and can’t say someone doesn’t “deserve” a consequence that doesn’t match the level of mistake. But the blame is still there.
We are only in control of our own actions. Therefore if we do something deliberately that directly endangers our wellbeing or puts something of ours at risk then it is our fault and our fault alone for putting ourselves in that situation. Period.
Context always matters. A woman walking her normal and responsible route home who is jumped and raped is in no way the same situation as the girl who goes to a party in a strange place drinking etc with strange seedy individuals who exhibit stereotypical criminal behavior and ends up getting raped. The first teaching in most self-defense classes is situational awareness and not putting yourself in positions to be attacked.
If you can help it and avoid it, and you choose not to…then you’re not causing the other persons behavior but you’re giving them the opportunity to do it. Hence you are only responsible for your own actions but still 100% responsible unless someone tricks you.
Just like how BG was the only one responsible for knowing where her drugs were and where she can and cannot take them. She should have known the laws because they were no secret yet she chose to be careless and found out the hard way. She is 100% responsible.
I really don’t think we are going to agree on this. A woman doesn’t deserve to be raped for wearing skimpy clothes and teasing a guy. However a guy who goes up to other guys in a bar saying “you’re a dumb ugly piece of shit” also doesn’t necessarily deserve to get punched but we’re pretty sure he’s going to and it’s his own damn fault. In both situations we WANT and HOPE the better head prevail for the rapists or attackers but can pretty much guess the outcome.
It IS possible for two parties to both be 100% responsible and take equal blame in something. There doesn’t have to be a split.
Two cars run their respective stop signs and hit each other. Both at fault.
Britney griner was 100% responsible for her illegal actions and whatever consequences befell her and Russia was 100% responsible for levying completely absurd and draconian consequences.
These things are not mutually exclusive and personal responsibility doesn’t absolve someone else from doing something wrong. But this is where you and I fundamentally disagree.