Paul must be rolling over in his grave.

There are many denominations in Christianity. Most the protestant spurs and forward are more welcoming to homosexuality

That's assuming Paul wasn't gay.

I think this has been in the works for quite a while now. It will lead to the demise of many congregations. My MIL’s being one of them. They have a lesbian pastor and obviously their congregation was on board with this vote. The members that had a problem with have already left, but they aren’t going to make it much longer because of that. Developers are chomping at the bit because the land they own is ridiculously valuable.

My girlfriend who is Methodist approves of it.

I think this kind of open and welcoming move will increase the attractiveness of the Methodists and help their numbers.

I suspect the reason Americans have been leaving churches has more to do with the sexism and anti-gay bias of many churches, more than the open and welcoming attitude of churches.

Yes there was a Pew study recently that showed that is pretty much why people are leaving religion. Basically Christianity has become synonymous with right wing evangelical Christianity that is viewed as anti women, LGBTQ, immigrants, etc. If trends continue it won't be long before we hit 40% of the US being non-Christian, mostly because of people leaving religion all together.

I’m not sure I buy that’s why people are leaving Christianity en masse. Why would you leave your congregation if they aren’t espousing those beliefs. Why leave your congregation because of what others are doing? Maybe that many are actually spreading the message of intolerance? I don’t think that’s true, but I have little evidence to back up that thought.

My guess would be the people leaving are not ones who had a congregation but rather ones that on a previous survey would have answered they were Christian but now just don't have any use for it so don't. IOW, it's not the church going Christians that are leaving but the ones that were Christian by cultural inertia. That pretty much describes my family. No one went to church or really ever talked about God or Jesus but we were Christians.

Are you saying your family left the church because you started associating Christianity with the right wing evangelical version of Christianity? I’ve been replying with that notion as it was the original point I responded to, but you didn’t directly address it in the post above.

I don’t think leaving the church for that reason is in question. I’m not sure I’m on board when you said the Pew research showed “pretty much” why people are leaving Christianity. I think there are a few reasons with no one being a high enough percentage to be “pretty much” why people are leaving. People simply not wanting to devote hours to it every Sunday morning because they think they have more important things to do, not believing a righteous God would allow so many of his servants to diddle little kids with impunity, becoming harder to justify biblical truth because of the advancement in science and history research, and some simply due to feeling the perceived hypocrisy of it all.

If the reason ones leaves Christianity is because of the association with right wing social intolerance, I would recommend finding a congregation who doesn’t hold those beliefs. There are many out there, including a quite a few of the subject sect. From my single location experience, they are lovely places.

I was going to reply to you in the other thread, but this'll do. In the past 20 years, the percentages have not gotten better.
https://www.barna.com/...t-on-a-persons-life/


2023 update
https://classicalconversationsfoundation.org/...orldview-in-america/

From my perspective, social intolerance is not tied exclusively to the right wing/ evangelical churches. Many sects are subtly or less-subtly intolerant. Methodists and Lutherans tend to be pretty mellow people, but they have their own social intolerance (evidenced by the fact that Methodists are only now officially abandoning their social intolerance in the year of our lord 2024).

ETA: your reference to a single location brings up an idea—> when people move, that’s an opportunity to find a better suited church or abandon church, if a better one doesn’t inspire attendance. Unless churches stay current with their understanding of the needs of the people, churches will lose members during transition times.

St. John ='"the one who Jesus loved"

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

No, I was never really in a church. My mom made us go to Sunday school briefly when we were children. We were nominally Methodists, but again no one went to church, no one ever talked about God or Jesus besides a rote grace we would say before dinner. The only time a pastor or God was invoked was funerals and weddings. I pretty much became an atheist once I was old enough to think about it (maybe 10-12?). I would describe my family as simply Christian by cultural inertia. I have no idea how my family would answer on a survey today if asked if they were Christians. It simply never comes up. One brother went through a few years of church going but that seems to have gone away at some point and never gets mentioned.

OK, perhaps I overstated the case for why people are leaving Christianity. I was going off of what I had read in some articles. Here's the PEW survey that I referenced. Probably fairer to say researchers think a major reason people are leaving is the one I sighted.

https://www.pewresearch.org/...d-in-recent-decades/

It's just a nod to the one NT statement that Christians often use to justify being opposed to homosexuality, although as I understand it, the original Greek doesn't translate as homosexuality but rather as some sort of general sexual deviancy. Moderns have inferred gay sex is what he was talking about.

Nonetheless, I think it's fair to say early Christians and the Church have been opposed to gay sex since fairly early on given how things changed in that regard from the Greco-Roman attitudes that preceded them.

There's gotta be a joke in there, someplace?

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

I think more Americans have left because they don't see the church as relevant. Young people are not hostile to religion like many older ones are. They just are not that interested. The old mainline protestant churches in America, many of them have been okay with gay clergy but still have been emptying out. The United Church of Canada has been okay with gay clergy for a long time but as a denomination they are almost dead. Catholic churches declining as well although those that are left are much more faithful in my experience. Most of the refugees I have been roped into taking care of, it has been by Catholics.

The churches that associated themselves mainly with social justice have been withering on the vine in America and Canada for decades now. If one wanted to go to church to be engaged in social justice issues as your primary thing there are many other places one can go.

The churches in America and Canada that have held their members or have grown generally are quite concerned with metaphysical things. They may also be quite interested in the poor and downtrodden as well. Or not. Some churches that have grown a lot preach and easy religion that is about personal development and prospering. Joel Osteen would be in that category.

Most organizations interested in service to others seem to be in trouble as well. Service clubs are getting smaller and folding up. The Kiwanas and Rotary are no longer the force they once were. Boy Scouts and Girls Scouts going too. The one thing that seems to continue is sports organizations. Although seems to be harder and harder to get coaches and volunteers. People quite happy to drop the kids off though. Our church has put on a club for girls and boys forever and we always have lots of kids. At least half from the community. People that don't have much money their kids generally are not in sports.

Although we do have soccer camp for Christ. Packed every summer.

---

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

https://www.washingtonpost.com/...e-a415-6be0f0465bfe/

People's perception of church attendance is all over the map. Most people think colonial America was likely a bunch of mostly church going people. The 18th century most men at least were more likely to be hung over from Saturday night at the tavern than in church Sunday morning. And on the frontier people did their own thing. Alcohol was a huge part of American life until the Sobriety movements in the 19th century.

---

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Was?

I grew up Lutheran. I remember the adults BBQ’ing and drinking in the church parking lot at 11am on a Sunday, likely talking about the Pack’s game that day. Never stopped being a huge part of a Lutheran’s life.