Topical news - apparently all 6 of the people who died in the Baltimore bridge incident were apparently Central or South American construction workers. No idea if documented status or not.
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Re: Roofing - Illegals? [Thom]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Roofing - Illegals? [Thom]
[ In reply to ]
Thom wrote:
slowguy wrote:
Quote:
Calling a generic group of people illegal aliens when you define that group as here illegally is fine. The problem comes when you refer to a specific individual as illegal when they are innocent until proven guilty. I wouldn't call you an illegal motorist because I suspect you have broken the speed limit.If you saw me break the speed limit, you would be completely correct to say I was driving illegally. No conviction required. If you saw me driving and knew I didn't have a valid license or wasn't old enough to drive, you would be completely correct to call me an illegal driver. No conviction required.
We know what the law is, and we frequently know when it's been broken. You don't have to wait for conviction to accurately describe someone based on their illegal conduct. You DO have to wait for a conviction before we can penalize them for that violation.
I don't disagree with you but seeing hispanics working on a roof isn't seeing you speeding or knowing you don't have a license. Calling brown people outside Home Depot illegals isn't presuming innocence. If you don't presume innocence, you end up accusing college basketball players of breaking the law. That strikes me as unfair, even if they aren't punished for it.
Sure, assuming someone who works in a trade must be an illegal alien is unfair, but that’s not what this thread has done. The OP was specifically trying to figure out what a likely situation might be. He said they might all be legal, or they might all be illegal, or they might be a mix. And he was asking the opinions of the LR as to what was most likely.
You’ve moved on from a problem with the terminology itself, to a problem with stereotyping ethnic groups.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
Re: Roofing - Illegals? [Dilbert]
[ In reply to ]
Dilbert wrote:
softrun wrote:
TravelingTri wrote:
Was in Dubai for a job. My wife and I left with just 4 suitcases to our name and came back with a 40' shipping container full of crap and 3 daughters. That's exactly my question.... I DON'T KNOW who is legal and who's not, but with the amount of people who have worked on my renovation and didn't speak a lick of english, and what I see in the news on the border..... like I said in a previous post I have hired about 10 subs to renovate my house from top to bottom (and underneath as I tore out my cast iron sewer pipes) and the quotes and sales where done by white dudes with perfect english.
It got me wondering and hence this post.
A bit off topic, but were your daughters born in Dubai? Are they Dubai citizens or automatically American? (I just assume you are American) . Do they have to apply for US citizenship? Always curious about foreign born kids.
Kids born overseas to American parents are automatically American citizens.
What's odd is kids born in USA to anyone, even people there illegally, are also American citizens. Police busted a house in an affluent neighborhood near Seattle when neighbors noticed one after another pregnant Chinese women lived there.
Ha, birthing tourism is a business in Canada. In Ricmond, BC, there were, likely still are houses that offer accommodation to pregnant Chinese women, stay for few months, give birth, then back to China. Kids are Canadians and entitled to everything. There was an attempt to shut it down but, you know, rights, freedoms...
Re: Roofing - Illegals? [Dr. Tigerchik]
[ In reply to ]
"A person-first suggestion- maybe “illegal workers” as a title instead of “illegals”? You use illegal workers in your post."
Better yet, how about undocumented?
Better yet, how about undocumented?
Re: Roofing - Illegals? [svennn]
[ In reply to ]
"It never ceases to amaze me the excuses we will make for people illegally crossing the border of a sovereign nation."
Not all undocumented immigrants crossed the border illegally. For example, people can legally cross the border then overstay they visa. Using proper vocabulary is not making excuses, it is just being accurate and precise in the discussion.
Not all undocumented immigrants crossed the border illegally. For example, people can legally cross the border then overstay they visa. Using proper vocabulary is not making excuses, it is just being accurate and precise in the discussion.
Re: Roofing - Illegals? [Trirunner]
[ In reply to ]
Trirunner wrote:
"It never ceases to amaze me the excuses we will make for people illegally crossing the border of a sovereign nation." Not all undocumented immigrants crossed the border illegally. For example, people can legally cross the border then overstay they visa. Using proper vocabulary is not making excuses, it is just being accurate and precise in the discussion.
If they come in legally, and have a visa, then they are not undocumented. Just because they overstay doesn’t mean their documents cease to exist.
I agree that it is good to be accurate and precise in the discussion.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
Re: Roofing - Illegals? [slowguy]
[ In reply to ]
"If they come in legally, and have a visa, then they are not undocumented. Just because they overstay doesn’t mean their documents cease to exist."
That's incorrect, per Merriam-Webster, 'undocumented' definition: lacking documents required for legal immigration or residence.
So, even if their document doesn't cease to exist, somebody overstaying their visa becomes undocumented.
That's incorrect, per Merriam-Webster, 'undocumented' definition: lacking documents required for legal immigration or residence.
So, even if their document doesn't cease to exist, somebody overstaying their visa becomes undocumented.
Re: Roofing - Illegals? [svennn]
[ In reply to ]
svennn wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me the excuses we will make for people illegally crossing the border of a sovereign nation.
We send very mixed signals as a country. Per the posts in this thread, we (broadly speaking) very eagerly employ migrant laborers of all types of documentation. That sends a strong demand signal. Estimates put the total number of illegal laborers at around 8 million. The size of the U.S. labor force is roughly ~168M. So we're talking about something approaching 2%. That's a lot.
The mixed signals have been stark to me in personal experience. I've been on border bike rides where I'll run into crossing illegal migrants who've managed to do the initial crossing ask me for the best way around border checkpoints (I don't tell them, but I will give them water). Then on the same ride I'll pass Imperial Valley agricultural fields where I see school buses full of what I'm pretty sure are largely illegal laborers headed to the fields. Border Patrol cars drive right by without blinking. It's similar to wet-foot/dry-foot. If you make it under the "protection" of a Big Ag producer, you're good. If you're on foot in the backcountry, you're not good. If you leave the Imperial Valley laborer settlements and try to enter white suburbs you're at risk unless you find a good construction crew, hotel housekeeping, etc.
Realistically, if you're an unemployed man with no prospects in a Central American country, and your buddies in the U.S. have a job lined up for you where you can send 50% of your income back to take care of your extended family, I get it that the lofty notions of "honoring the boder of a sovereign nation" doesn't appear to be the moral choice.
Re: Roofing - Illegals? [Trirunner]
[ In reply to ]
Trirunner wrote:
"If they come in legally, and have a visa, then they are not undocumented. Just because they overstay doesn’t mean their documents cease to exist." That's incorrect, per Merriam-Webster, 'undocumented' definition: lacking documents required for legal immigration or residence.
So, even if their document doesn't cease to exist, somebody overstaying their visa becomes undocumented.
Or the validity of the document has ceased.
Like the expired insurance cards that pile up in the glove box…. Without a valid one, you’re considered uninsured.
Re: Roofing - Illegals? [Trirunner]
[ In reply to ]
Trirunner wrote:
"If they come in legally, and have a visa, then they are not undocumented. Just because they overstay doesn’t mean their documents cease to exist." That's incorrect, per Merriam-Webster, 'undocumented' definition: lacking documents required for legal immigration or residence.
So, even if their document doesn't cease to exist, somebody overstaying their visa becomes undocumented.
The documents aren’t lacking, they’re just expired.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
40-Tude wrote:
Trirunner wrote:
"If they come in legally, and have a visa, then they are not undocumented. Just because they overstay doesn’t mean their documents cease to exist." That's incorrect, per Merriam-Webster, 'undocumented' definition: lacking documents required for legal immigration or residence.
So, even if their document doesn't cease to exist, somebody overstaying their visa becomes undocumented.
Or the validity of the document has ceased.
Like the expired insurance cards that pile up in the glove box…. Without a valid one, you’re considered uninsured.
In that case, the “un” refers to your coverage, not your insurance documents themselves. You’re no longer insured.
In the case of immigration, you’re either legally or illegally residing in the country. Like being insured or uninsured. When your auto insurance expires, you don’t become an undocumented driver.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)