How many of you were in Cozumel on Nov. 19th?? I was. The “safety” issue is BS. There were boats out by the swim start already. There were no waves. No current. A 10kts wind. Ironman is lowering itself race-by-race.
It is not a matter of “put up with whatever race format the RD thinks of”. That is not an ironman triathlon. Is not a crossfit competition to see how much weird stuff can you do running up and down. If it rains in Wimbledon they don’t just change the game to an indoors frontenis or pingpong game… if triathlon wants to be taken seriously, it just can’t change its format for whatever reason and then in a very Slowtwitch fashion, blame the athletes who say an Ironman is an Ironman: swim, bike, run. Not a “ if that ocean is not flat” we do a bike-run. If it is not safe to swim, then it is not safe to do the triathlon. Period. But in Cozumel there was no severe winds/thunderstorms/swells… it was FLAT. A little choppy. A little. And if you want to see it by yourself, check the link posted a few post before, and then express your opinion. We are not talking about if it is a safety issue. We are taking about that there was no REAL justification for canceling the swim. The mexican navy guys that said they didn’t give permission did not support their opinion on any weather reports of forecast. Come on, there were even people doing SUP a few minutes later! Although they probably were not “ironman athletes”, just some random tourists washing up the hangover…

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"If triathlon wants to be taken seriously"

Not sure what this means when you think about it. Triathlon is a multifaceted sport with all kinds of stakeholders that take it seriously.

Would anyone argue no one takes Ironman, the largest athletic event promoter in the world seriously? Looking at the contracts they manage to convince cities the world over to sign, to say nothing of the various sponsorship agreements, I think Ironman is taken very seriously.

If what you're saying is that we want the general, uneducated population to suddenly increase their take-it-seriously rating for triathlon, more than they already do (and they generally do see it as a taxing, serious physical commitment), then I'm not sure how Cozumel or other venue cancelations cause less serious opinions to occur.

First and foremost, because if that above cohort is the target demographic for taking it seriously, well, they didn't even know Cozumel was happening. So they don't care about the swim being canceled.

The city officials take the event seriously, and if anything, seeing an event that is willing to upset its participants and cancel or shorten part of it in the name of safety? Well, that shows they are serious. So cities will be more trusting in the future. They take this stuff seriously!

All I can say on this is, from reading everything, it sounds like IM should have just gone with a shortened swim. It's surprising there wasn't a way to figure that out.

But we also need to accept that you don't get everything perfect. You get too much or too little. You can have too many deaths from conditions in situations that could have been controlled or you can have too many "unnecessary" cancelations. Take your pick. People dying or hard core Ironman crying.

Your highlighting the issue. Pretty much all races basically use local resources to staff their events. There's no national federation of "bad ass" Lifeguards showing up at every triathlon event. In your instance, you get great LG's with plenty of open water experience. I've seen plenty of races where they just use LG's from the local pool who may or may not have open water experience. So you add even a small bit of wind or current chop to someone trying to use a kayak or SUP or board and suddenly they may struggle, and again it could be very little environmental factors affecting them. But if they suddenly can't perform their LG duties, the race has to cancel the swim.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

So your position then is Cozumel IM water safety uses unqualified staff?

No my position is that from race to race the quality/experience of a LG that is part of the safety crew will vary greatly. No where in my statement have I mentioned anything about being unqualified. I believe the only requirement is to to use certified LG. I don't believe in any regulation do they have to have open water experience; unless you say the 10 min orientation before they get in the water qualifies as "open water" experience.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Well you said the 17 year old life guard from the “municipale” pool. Unless that’s a typo that seems to be a reference to the local pool in MX

So if you’re not claiming the above, that the staff was qualified, what do you think IM’s motivation to cancel in CZM was given the report above that it was super calm? If we’re talking about an existential shift to IM races, we need to identify the cause of the shift to try to change it.

No that's a generalization that I used from the many races I've attended in over 15 years of experience in the sport. I don't see as many "bad ass" LG's that you see.

So here's the concern. "Conditions" don't matter what they are if the LG staff can't properly do their job. So if a ripple of wind causes the LG's to not be able to balance on the SUP/kayak/insert whatever vehicle they use to LG the swim, you can't have the swim. Period

So it doesn't matter if it's "calm", if the LG staff that is tasked to LG can't be in position to LG the swim, they cancel the swim. It would be complete liability otherwise. So I'm not saying that means they are suddenly "unqualified". Unqualified is a very dangerous term when you are talking about liability, etc, and as far as I'm concerned with regulations, once an LG is certified through whatever governing agency, that "qualifies" them to act as a LG (regardless of actual experience they have).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Right, and we’re taking coz but you said it wasn’t the skills of the staff here. So why do you think IM had a motivation to cancel what by the reports on this site was an easy swim?

The *actual* conditions of the swim is irrelevant in today's climate more and more. It's pretty much likely way more to do with the condition of your staff to deal with environmental conditions. That's likely the biggest motivating decision for races.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

For the record, yes the water, both by the start and finish areas, looked rather calm. But it was definitely not the case over the whole course. We saw that very clearly while on the bus taking us to T1.

Ok so it is unskilled (note did not say unqualified) staff that caused Coz cancellation. Glad we cleared that up

I am curious as to why Dr Triax DNF’d as a result of the cancelled swim

I have no clue what the actual cause for this race. You asked the motivation and I've told you likely what led to many swims being cancelled when the conditions look "normal". Which again imo goes back to CYA as a RD/race company. There's no real downside to canceling a swim from a legality standpoint.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

100% agree with you here ALG. I was at the Cozumel cancelled swim start and did the race, and the ocean was not for swimming for everyone. I live by the ocean, I surf in overhead+ waves year round and this was to be my 16th Ironman race. Very bummed out that we could not swim that day, but:
I completely understand and respect the RDs decision to cancel the swim. What I hear is that it was NOT up to Ironman wether the swim conditions were approved or not, but local authorities.


What we saw from the bus taking us back to T1 was that the buoys on the swim course were not even set up, suggesting that the IM organization probably knew that there was not going to be any swim.
As discussed in the Kienle thread, you cannot assess a strong current from land. The day after the race, local fishermen took us snorkling on the Cielo reef in Cozumel. They told us that the current has been bad and opposite the swim direction for days now, and some swimmers would not even have made the first buoy in these conditions. If saw the safety paddle boarders struggle just standing up, not even moving around.
As most things in the world today, dimensions of being "hardcore" is diminishing and the more "woke" (or safe?) lifestyle is becoming more dominant. The Ironman brand is dealing with legal & brand issues after Ireland & South Africa swim deaths. I get it.
T

No, they cancel or postpone the match, or they play on a covered court. The equivalent is canceling the swim or moving it into a swimming pool. I don't know of many Ironman events that have the capability to move their swim into a pool for ~2000 participants. Do you?

I raced a sprint earlier this year where there was a tornado warning issued while I was in the water. Because I started in one of the later waves there were athletes who were already riding before I finished my swim, but by the time I got into T1, they were not permitting athletes to go out on the bike. So I lost my best leg of the race and ended up doing a swim-run. I wouldn't have entered a swim-run. It was not the race I wanted to do, and I was hella disappointed. But it was something I knew could happen, because I signed up for an outdoor event where there are things beyond my control.

At some point, either you have to trust the people who are running the race, or you have to not enter. The swim in Cozzie was canceled as a safety issue, based on local knowledge of the conditions and currents. Just because you personally didn't think it was a safety issue, people who know better than you disagreed. Or maybe they didn't know better than you, and they made a wrong call. But based on what I'm reading from other people who were at the race, they made a pretty sensible call.

There is no win for the RD in these situations. People either bitch that they didn't get to swim and they should have, or that the swim was dangerous and should have been canceled. I'm amazed anybody wants to direct races, given what a bunch of whiny assholes triathletes are.

Thank you for saying this. And we wonder why some of the small local races have gone away?!? Maybe we should just appreciate that we get to do this sport whether it be a SBR or a SB or a RBR or a BR. Be thankful that we can just get up in the morning and participate. At the end of the day, this is our hobby. Give grace.

I was in Cozumel as well. I was pretty angry and upset about the cancellation, but seeing the water on the drive over, you could tell there would be a huge percentage of people DNFing on that swim. The buoy lines that were out there were all over the place. And from Leon Chevalier's instagram post, it seems like despite it looking fairly calm at the start, a start pontoon couldn't be held in place - If the things required for the race can't be held in place, it's probably too rough out there.

It’s actually quite amazing that the one Ironman that is held in what is widely known as a sometimes wildly current prone area (I’ve had dives where I went literal miles in the current) has not until now in 15 years been cancelled .

The Port Captain closed the Port. The two days leading up to the race, the port was closed due to the conditions. That morning it was still closed.
It sucks, but the Port Authority knows what they are doing when closing it. There's things under the surface that could have impacted it as well - maybe it was too unsafe for the safety divers to be out during that time? Maybe there were things out of sight or predictions for it to get worse?

Someone heading out on a SUP from their resort is taking their own risk, but the port authority can restrict boats from leaving the Marina - which means there is nothing on the course - no safety boats, no safety divers. That is a safety issue.

If you've ever gone diving in Cozumel you'd know just how strong the currents can be under the surface. I went a few years back and we drifted under the swim course along a ridge for an hour, hardly using any oxygen. It may look calm from the shore, but the current can be very strong beneath the surface, which affects buoy's, rescue boats, divers, etc. Then again some people have a really hard time understanding a world exists beyond the small empty space between their ears.

IN Cozumel you can't tell the swim currents from the chop, I did it in 2021 and I thought the water was dead calm until I say the buoy line under water and then again at the finish line with a record swim time on what felt like a float.

So if it was a current into the swimmer I can see them concern as I had 2 swimmer in 2021 that swim 1:30 regular IM swim do 58 min there, so if that current was the other way. they may not make the first bouy before needing a break and now you have 1000 athletes packed up against a current and no one moving ahead and a ton of issues even swimming backwards???

Imagine IM cali but an upstream swim, No one is signing up for race just like the no swim race and all the safety issues with crowds and if someone stops swimming they float backwards into swimmers.

now those two athletes I mentioned did do a swim day prior to the race were they said one way was 3:00+ per 100 m and the other way 1:10 per 100 m. swimming at the hotel.

chop of the water isn't current.

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10 years ago or so Coz had a real bad current along a certain path that 50 feet on either side didn’t exist. So the poor bastards that got stuck in that current looked like they were swimming in an endless pool while people 50 feet away were swimming as normal. Kind of like a rip current but unlike a rip current you can’t see it.

Video was posted here back in the day.

I was snorkeling near Isla Mujeres a few years ago and several people got stuck in a similar current and it was terrifying for them. The excursion folks, me, and a couple other strong swimmers rescued half dozen people out of there. There was one lady that would’ve died had I not got to her.

I live four miles from the ocean and swim and play in it all the time. There are times it looks calm as can be and you get in and voom away you go.

Agreed. Just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

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I was there too, and I wholeheartedly agree. I believe it was more than just the water conditions. The infuriating rumor I heard was that the kayak safety crew was holding the event hostage, re-negotiating on the spot until their demands were met. It was an absolute disaster trying to get to those buses, and waiting under the scorching sun for hours was a complete mess. To top it off, my Special Needs bag was lost. What a horrendous experience after dedicating a whole year to prepare; I feel like I've lost the one thing I worked so hard for. To add insult to injury, this was my second full Iron Man, having successfully completed several Half Iron Man races before. The frustration and disappointment are beyond words.

I remember being in Monteray one year and some out of shape guy rents a kayak. Launches off the beach right in front of us. 50 m out flips it and the tow started to take him out to sea. he had a wetsuit on. There wasn't much shore wash and 50 out none. Couldn't get back in the kayak. We ran up the beach for the kayak place to rescue him. The guy was totally gased by hanging onto the kayak for maybe ten minutes. The water was 55 and I didn't have a wetsuit so I couldn't go in. If we had not seen him he might have died.

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