In the aero sensors for dummies thread, Ryan posted a link to a Moxy presentation he gave recently. I participated as a potential user of Moxy. Ryan presented different ways Moxy could be used in the context of aero testing.

I know he has one, I know he uses it, maybe reply to his msg and he may give you some feedback.

I have three of them, and they’re fun to use. But the data they provide is not that useful in my opinion. I’ve used them for hiking, running, and cycling mostly. Lots of ramp tests, some intervals, easy running, etc. mounting them on your body is a challenge until you get your own system down. I can do calf, quad, bicep, tricep, and shoulder easily with some compression fittings.

My lactate meter was cheaper and provides more interesting data, though.

Anything in particular you have questions about?

What makes the data less useful than your lactate meter? I understand they are measuring different things, but was thinking the device could serve a similar purpose. Is consistency/repeatability good, or if you have the device an inch lower on your leg than yesterday then the numbers are different?

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Dimond Bikes Superfan

In my experience, trying to identify threshold with muscle oxygen is nebulous at best. Far more so than interpreting lactate measurements. The SpareCycles blog demonstrates how challenging it can be to interpret data, especially if you use more than 1 sensor. Here and Here.

I am not extremely careful with sensor placement and I see similar ranges of values depending on the muscle. For example, when I place the sensor on my quad I just eyeball the location. I'm usually around 44% at rest and I can go down to 3-5% at max efforts.

There is a difference between oxygen and CO2 kinetics. In my experience, VCO2 and blood lactate follow a similar trend and muscle oxygen will recover while lactate levels (and VCO2) are still elevated.

I think the device is worth the money IF you have a specific use. If you're just curious, try to rent one first. I had a Humon Hex first and was eyeballing Moxy for years before buying a set.

Andri Feldmann is producing a bunch of work with Moxy, but it's not compelling to me.

Very helpful, thank you!

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Dimond Bikes Superfan

Hi Eric

Ryan here (Marc's reference above). Although being around for a while I think this technology is still in its infancy and will become adopted by more and more leading coaches. A few points to make:

- I agree the data is not easily "accessible". It is often a puzzle to figure out. Sometimes you don't figure it out. You either hate that type of thing or love it. I spent a lot of time on the forum when Jeurg Feldmann (one of the "fathers" of applying the tech) was very active and very open to "teaching" the forum members.

- There are applications now starting to help interpret data. See trainalyzed as an example.

- A number of leading coaches seem to have caught on in experimenting with the tech - if I recall I have heard Olav, Dan Lorrang, Dan Plews
and key researchers (Nike breaking 2 project, Red bull endurance) all reference using it in podcasts

- The real insights in my view are not absolute values but in trends and slopes of oxygenation and hemoglobin and in placing on non primary muscles (which show systemic effects). The limitations on getting different values by not placing in identical spot are overstated in my view.

- Having more than one sensor made a big difference in my view (I have two). You can measure a working muscle to see what us happening locally vs a non primary muscle to see systemic effects

- Lactate and oxygen kinetics are very much linked. I am not sure why lactate is seen as a better "gold standard", when many would argue the muscle oxygenation is real time and continous while lactate is discrete data and "out of date". Lacate is also highly variable based on all sorts of variables and vulnerable to data collection issues. Why are we trying to see if oxygen steady state matches lactate steady state
and turning points - maybe we should be asking the question the other way around given the above? It will be interesting as real time lactate develops in wearable watches how this evolves - my guess is that it will show the oxygen curves were "right all along" etc. I also think that over time we will become able to explain the differences in these different curves based on individual athletes (e.g in the same way ventilatory thresholds and lacate threshold relationships differ between athletes). I am not against "lactate" just don't agree with the "lactate" is better.

-i found the data collection hard for running - keeping the sensors staying put etc

- The tech around showing real time data (that matters) still is very bad in my view (part of problem is I have pre bluetooth versions of Moxy).

- I agree that the sensor is very expensive for the marginal potential benefit and could certainly land up being a "white elephant"

- Despite being a "believer" in the tech I have not committed 100% to the value it can bring. E.g. if you are doing this properly your intervals should not be time fixed but guided by Smo2 values etc, Trying to ride in metabolic steady state would be monitoring Sm02 slopes not percentage of FTP formulas. If you use applications like Trainerroad etc its hard to structure training around this.

If you are interested I would register on the Moxy academy, and watch Brad Wilkins presentation in the 2023 Summit and Brett Kirby's (I think 2021) summit. I suspect you will either feel ok the data is useful and powerful but perhaps not worth it, or wow I have to get this but I highly doubt you will feel this data has no real value and application.