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IM Malaysia 2023 Kona slot allocation
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An athlete that I train asked Ironman about the procedure of the allocation because he thought his age-group should have been given 2 slots. Ironman answered how they are doing the math:

As you may have noted in the Athlete Guide, once the “Initially Allocated Slots” are allocated (1 per age group having at least 1 starter), the “Proportionally Allocated Slots” are then provisionally allocated across all men’s age groups (“AG”) based on the number of starters for each age group. This is done by allocating each Proportionally Allocated Slot, one by one, to the men’s AG with the then-highest ratio of starters to slots (“Ratio”).

To illustrate: You’ll see above M40-44 began with the highest Ratio (109 to 1). So the first Proportionally Allocated Slot went to M40-44. After M40-44 received its first Proportionally Allocated Slot, that AG (M40-44) then had a Ratio of 54.5 to 1. Which means the next Proportionally Allocated Slot went to the AG with the then-highest Ratio, which was M45-49 (96 to 1). And so on.

After distribution of all Proportionally Allocated Slots, M30-34 had the then-highest ratio (38 to 1). But at that point there were no more Proportionally Allocated Slots remaining to allocate for the men.

The next procedure applied is stated on page 49 of the Athlete Guide, which states in pertinent part:

“If any slot allocated to an Age Group is unclaimed (after Roll Down for that Age Group is completed), then that unclaimed slot is re-allocated, within the same gender, to the Age Group with the highest ratio of starters to slots.”

Accordingly, had any slot in the table above not been accepted by any finisher in a given AG, that unclaimed slot then would’ve been re-allocated to M30-34, because, as stated above, M30-34 had the then-highest ratio of starters-to-slots (38 to 1). For example, if both finishers in M70-74 had rejected that AG’s sole slot (i.e., if it had “rolled down” through the entire AG), that slot would’ve been re-allocated to M30-34.

As it happened, all men’s slots offered at IRONMAN Malaysia were accepted at roll-down within the respective age groups.
Accordingly, there was no re-allocation of slots between different age groups.

As an aside: At first glance it might seem incorrect that, for example, M50-54 had 77 starters and 3 slots, whereas M30-34 had 38 starters but only 1 slot. That third slot for M50-54 was the last Proportionally Allocated Slot to be allocated. Before that third slot was allocated to M50-54, that AG’s Ratio was 77 to 2, or 38.5 to 1. Which meant that, at that point, M50-54 had the then-highest Ratio, barely edging out the 38 to 1 Ratio in M30-34.

Last edited by: jaimev: Oct 19, 23 14:29
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Re: IM Malaysia 2023 Kona slot allocation [jaimev] [ In reply to ]
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I know I'm immediately taking this thread on a tangent, but those numbers are illustrative of why IM distance is dying out.

The median age competitor is in the 45-49.

30 athletes aged under 30, vs 29 aged 60+.

Admittedly, a handful of pros would skew those numbers, but it's not healthy for the future of the sport at this distance.
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Re: IM Malaysia 2023 Kona slot allocation [satanellus] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with you .
So you basically have more chances to Kona qualify if you are in the "right"(biggest) group instead of how good your performance is.
As an example, the guy who placed 2nd overall in this race was in the 30-34 AG and didn't get a slot...

If the trend is that IM participants are getting older , that's what Kona will get , every year there will be older triathletes instead of the best of the range.

Perhaps an algorithm based on performance, age , time behind first , etc would be a fairer way to determine the slots . Something similar as ITRA does in Trail Running : https://itra.run/FAQ/PerformanceIndex . You get points based on your race performance .

Or a combination of both , 1 slot per AG and after that give the slots based on a performance index.
Last edited by: jaimev: Oct 20, 23 2:52
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Re: IM Malaysia 2023 Kona slot allocation [satanellus] [ In reply to ]
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I have the impression this has been like that for a while. Most popular AGs have been 40, 45, 50, 39 for a long time.
A lot of people seem to get into triathlon at around or after 40 years of age.
To the OP, I'm not sure what the question is, the system has been like that for a long time.
If, as others are suggesting on this thread, faster performances should be given precedence, then older AGs wouldn't stand a chance unless you set up a super complicated method that may end up with something similar to the current status quo.
The younger AG are often the fastest albeit the least popular.

It's fairly easy to estimate slots based on previous year's participants so if one wants to do that before signing up to a race, it isn't particularly difficult.
Last edited by: marcoviappiani: Oct 20, 23 3:06
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Re: IM Malaysia 2023 Kona slot allocation [marcoviappiani] [ In reply to ]
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Yes , but now the most popular AG aren't anymore 40-44 , in many places now is 50-54. So every year AGs 20-39 are getting less chances of qualifying despite their performance...

As an example, IM Florida 40-44 was the most popular AG 10 years ago, now is 50-55. And the rest of AGs get bigger as they age.

The method isn't too complicated , is a basically a handicap method like some sports have.
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Re: IM Malaysia 2023 Kona slot allocation [jaimev] [ In reply to ]
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Jaime is correct.

I’ve been in the sport for 20 years or so. My AG has on average always been the largest AG. I’m 53 now. It’s not a good sign for the sport that the largest AG is aging the same as me.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: IM Malaysia 2023 Kona slot allocation [satanellus] [ In reply to ]
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satanellus wrote:
I know I'm immediately taking this thread on a tangent, but those numbers are illustrative of why IM distance is dying out.

The median age competitor is in the 45-49.

30 athletes aged under 30, vs 29 aged 60+.

Admittedly, a handful of pros would skew those numbers, but it's not healthy for the future of the sport at this distance.

I think this is a very fair point. Maybe IM should award the top 3 overall a slot independent of their AG groups? That might bias a couple extra slots to the younger AGs but that just rewards participation in a much needed demographic.
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Re: IM Malaysia 2023 Kona slot allocation [Lurker4] [ In reply to ]
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Lurker4 wrote:


I think this is a very fair point. Maybe IM should award the top 3 overall a slot independent of their AG groups? That might bias a couple extra slots to the younger AGs but that just rewards participation in a much needed demographic.


This might be a good solution.
The problem with a formula is that it's very difficult to predict and you wouldn't be able to estimate slot allocation before the race. Besides, there are so many external factors in a triathlon affecting race times.

It's interesting that from what people are saying here races in the USA have a movement towards the older age groups. I wonder if it's a US specific trend or something more global. I wouldn't get to this conclusion from the data shared by the OP.

I've looked at results of a few NA races and the ranking of AGs by finishers was still what I would have expected although I have no quick way of knowing how the numbers have moved over time.

It would be interesting to look at numbers over the years over a big set of races.
Last edited by: marcoviappiani: Oct 20, 23 7:26
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Re: IM Malaysia 2023 Kona slot allocation [jaimev] [ In reply to ]
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I know others are discussing how the slots get allocated, but my takeaway from this is that this is a temporary measure until the 2025 cycle rolls over and we get back to 2200-2500 slots per gender. Right now there's about half as many slots that should be there on the men's side since roughly half (I've seen 1200 quoted elsewhere) of the slots for the 2024 men's cycle were given out as part of the 2023 cycle before they announced the split venue.

Once its back to 40-50 slots per gender, a lot of the issues being discussed disappear
Last edited by: timbasile: Oct 20, 23 8:50
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Re: IM Malaysia 2023 Kona slot allocation [timbasile] [ In reply to ]
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timbasile wrote:
I know others are discussing how the slots get allocated, but my takeaway from this is that this is a temporary measure until the 2025 cycle rolls over and we get back to 2200-2500 slots per gender. Right now there's about half as many slots that should be there on the men's side since roughly half (I've seen 1200 quoted elsewhere) of the slots for the 2024 men's cycle were given out as part of the 2023 cycle before they announced the split venue.

Once its back to 40-50 slots per gender, a lot of the issues being discussed disappear


The math is still the math regardless of the number of slots. This way of allocating slots is better than how they were doing it years ago when their math was literally incorrect. See posts from kny (and many from myself) from years ago. kny figured out how IM was screwing up the math with slot allocations. FWIW, it still took IM years to correct it despite being proven their math was wrong.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
Last edited by: The GMAN: Oct 20, 23 9:03
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Re: IM Malaysia 2023 Kona slot allocation [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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So long as their philosophy is to distribute slots according to proportionality of starters (+min of 1 slot for each age group), then is this (current math) not the optimal way to achieve that? (I'm willing to be wrong)

What I meant is that the quirks of this are showing up because we're in a "low slot environment" (where you get someone 2nd overall but no slot) - and that the quirks should iron themselves out, no? (I'd hazard that its also because the race itself is a smaller race and so the distributions/relative proportions of who shows up can be different)

If you want to go top X per race automatically get slots, or Top 3 in each AG should each get a slot, fine - but that changes the philosophy of who should be going to Kona. They did this on the women's side to say that women should get 50% of the slots in any given year and their own race. (which I think is amazing) If you want to make the argument that IM should use their slots to incentivize either top performers regardless of AG, or certain under-represented groups, then that's something different.
Last edited by: timbasile: Oct 20, 23 10:21
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Re: IM Malaysia 2023 Kona slot allocation [marcoviappiani] [ In reply to ]
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In races and smaller AGs it's still difficult to estimate slots , 1 slot less can mean a 50% lower chance and luck also plays a big role as you may find someone who is super-top AGer and that's it.

But the point of the post was more about slots and demographics , here is a great article from CoachCox where you can see the trend from 2012 to 2019 , older AGs are growing and younger (20-35) remain the same .

https://www.coachcox.co.uk/...graphics-age-groups/

It just looks strange to me that a top-3 overall doesn't make it to Kona because the slots have to go to the largest AG.

I´m 54 and been in the sport since 1992, so I think I'm not age biased :)
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Re: IM Malaysia 2023 Kona slot allocation [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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The GMAN wrote:
Jaime is correct.

I’ve been in the sport for 20 years or so. My AG has on average always been the largest AG. I’m 53 now. It’s not a good sign for the sport that the largest AG is aging the same as me.

Same 52. Always been the biggest or second biggest age group.
Has been since 1996 when I started in the sport.
Luckily for me I don’t do Ironman branded events anymore as the value isn’t there and if someone doesn’t support other race directors, Ironman will be it.
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Re: IM Malaysia 2023 Kona slot allocation [satanellus] [ In reply to ]
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satanellus wrote:
I know I'm immediately taking this thread on a tangent, but those numbers are illustrative of why IM distance is dying out.

The median age competitor is in the 45-49.

30 athletes aged under 30, vs 29 aged 60+.
I agree IM is definitely appealing to younger ppl less than the full.. A few points specific to Langkawi
1 Langkawi is very hot and highly variable weather and holds a 70.3 same day so more younger ppl might choose that as they make the normal journey of short to mid to long
2 full costs 2x 70.3 again younger ppl less money
3 slot chasers are all in the have money will travel category so that skews older, lack of slots in younger AG means many don't go which then adds to lack of slots this occurs also in 70.3, many younger ppl aren't motivated by slots as they couldn't afford to go anyhow maybe unless they work in crypto slash influencer slash dropshipping slash Of slash side hustles slash DEI consulting slash NFTs slash making the world a better place through some obscure app
4 there are bubbles population wise for boomers and millenials but gen x and gen z are generally smaller and gen z financially are fairly f+kt withen especially in high unemployment high debt and getting high, not sure tri or any sport is on their radar

Imnz is coming soon and has same dynamic of 70.3 + IM same day I'd expect to see same thing but maybe skew isn't quite as much. Maybe imnz 70. 3wc will affect the data set let's see
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Re: IM Malaysia 2023 Kona slot allocation [Lurker4] [ In reply to ]
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Lurker4 wrote:
satanellus wrote:
I know I'm immediately taking this thread on a tangent, but those numbers are illustrative of why IM distance is dying out.

The median age competitor is in the 45-49.

30 athletes aged under 30, vs 29 aged 60+.

Admittedly, a handful of pros would skew those numbers, but it's not healthy for the future of the sport at this distance.


I think this is a very fair point. Maybe IM should award the top 3 overall a slot independent of their AG groups? That might bias a couple extra slots to the younger AGs but that just rewards participation in a much needed demographic.

How about automatic slots for the top 5 men and women overall. Then after that allocate it to the rest per the existing formula. I am in 55-59. There was a time 30 years ago that my 25-29 age group was the biggest age group at Ironman Canada and generally my age group was the largest in the field untl we got to around 45, and then the age group that was 5 years younger than mine (yours GMAN) took over as largest which was roughly 15 years ago.

In any case, we need to reward the fast younger finishers. If a few less slots go to older age groups that is perfectly OK. We need to invest in the younger age groups. It is that simple. I am perfectly OK if I don't get a slot in 55-59 because a fast young person 25 or 30 year old in the top 5 got one. There was a time when we were those fast young guys, but we also had the biggest age group. Old guys did not do this sport and deprive us of championship slots.

It's time to throw the torch to the younger age groups. They are the future of the sport. If you are over 50, your time is ticking because pretty soon when we hit 60 most of us can't run anymore, and the sport dies.
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Re: IM Malaysia 2023 Kona slot allocation [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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+1

devashish_paul wrote:
Lurker4 wrote:
satanellus wrote:
I know I'm immediately taking this thread on a tangent, but those numbers are illustrative of why IM distance is dying out.

The median age competitor is in the 45-49.

30 athletes aged under 30, vs 29 aged 60+.

Admittedly, a handful of pros would skew those numbers, but it's not healthy for the future of the sport at this distance.


I think this is a very fair point. Maybe IM should award the top 3 overall a slot independent of their AG groups? That might bias a couple extra slots to the younger AGs but that just rewards participation in a much needed demographic.


How about automatic slots for the top 5 men and women overall. Then after that allocate it to the rest per the existing formula. I am in 55-59. There was a time 30 years ago that my 25-29 age group was the biggest age group at Ironman Canada and generally my age group was the largest in the field untl we got to around 45, and then the age group that was 5 years younger than mine (yours GMAN) took over as largest which was roughly 15 years ago.

In any case, we need to reward the fast younger finishers. If a few less slots go to older age groups that is perfectly OK. We need to invest in the younger age groups. It is that simple. I am perfectly OK if I don't get a slot in 55-59 because a fast young person 25 or 30 year old in the top 5 got one. There was a time when we were those fast young guys, but we also had the biggest age group. Old guys did not do this sport and deprive us of championship slots.

It's time to throw the torch to the younger age groups. They are the future of the sport. If you are over 50, your time is ticking because pretty soon when we hit 60 most of us can't run anymore, and the sport dies.
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Re: IM Malaysia 2023 Kona slot allocation [jaimev] [ In reply to ]
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One more thought. Almost no one is getting into the sport at 55+.

All the guys who beat me for slots are the guys who have been beating me for 15-35 years. It is literally the same people. In my time I have 6 KQ either direct or passed on rolldown and qualified for 70.3 Worlds each year that I gave it a run (because you can honestly give it 2-3 shots in a year vs an IM which is usually a one shot deal). Why I am saying this is because giving slots to the older age groups at the expense of the younger age groups is pointless. Almost EVERYONE qualifying in 50+ has had slot chances for multiple decades. We are lifers. We won't leave the sport. The 27 year old kid who finishes 3rd overall and does not get a KQ we need that young guy in this sport. We don't need people in my age group in the sport. We're just hanging on to borrowed time.

Using the analogy from my business life, 50+ is like a dying product line that is currently a cash cow. Sure you want to milk that product line for max revenue, but you need to invest in the new product lines that will be big over the 10-60 quarter window. In triathlon we can say the next 5-25 year window.

I was literally around when triathlon was a startup. The sport has either run its lifecycle (think of Digital Equipment Corp, Pan Am etc etc that went the way of the dinosaur and who were world dominating) vs the likes of IBM and Delta who managed to stay relevant and not die out even through their biz domains had matured.

My big question is do we recruit 35-45 year olds and especially women in those brackets to keep the sport alive for a rolling 10-15 year cycle or recruit 25 year olds before they have kids for a 30 year life cycle? Giving slots to the top 5 rewards the latter strategy. But maybe the sport needs to refresh its 35-45 year old funnel of people whose kids are older and they are established in professional lives and can devote time to it.

Almost all my friends who were in it when we were 20-29, we all struggled in 30-39 building careers and dealing with kids. Your body is prime time, but your time and money are not.
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Oct 22, 23 10:17
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Re: IM Malaysia 2023 Kona slot allocation [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Those are all valid points and probably part of the reasoning for IM to double the slots and equalize the proportion of men:women.
Last edited by: marcoviappiani: Oct 22, 23 9:57
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Re: IM Malaysia 2023 Kona slot allocation [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
One more thought. Almost no one is getting into the sport at 55+.

All the guys who beat me for slots are the guys who have been beating me for 15-35 years. It is literally the same people. In my time I have 6 KQ either direct or passed on rolldown and qualified for 70.3 Worlds each year that I gave it a run (because you can honestly give it 2-3 shots in a year vs an IM which is usually a one shot deal). Why I am saying this is because giving slots to the older age groups at the expense of the younger age groups is pointless. Almost EVERYONE qualifying in 50+ has had slot chances for multiple decades. We are lifers. We won't leave the sport. The 27 year old kid who finishes 3rd overall and does not get a KQ we need that young guy in this sport. We don't need people in my age group in the sport. We're just hanging on to borrowed time.

Using the analogy from my business life, 50+ is like a dying product line that is currently a cash cow. Sure you want to milk that product line for max revenue, but you need to invest in the new product lines that will be big over the 10-60 quarter window. In triathlon we can say the next 5-25 year window.

I was literally around when triathlon was a startup. The sport has either run its lifecycle (think of Digital Equipment Corp, Pan Am etc etc that went the way of the dinosaur and who were world dominating) vs the likes of IBM and Delta who managed to stay relevant and not die out even through their biz domains had matured.

My big question is do we recruit 35-45 year olds and especially women in those brackets to keep the sport alive for a rolling 10-15 year cycle or recruit 25 year olds before they have kids for a 30 year life cycle? Giving slots to the top 5 rewards the latter strategy. But maybe the sport needs to refresh its 35-45 year old funnel of people whose kids are older and they are established in professional lives and can devote time to it.

Almost all my friends who were in it when we were 20-29, we all struggled in 30-39 building careers and dealing with kids. Your body is prime time, but your time and money are not.

38-48 is likely their best recruiting ground for full. They get the younger crowd through 70.3s but as you point out many have neither time or money to invest in full Ironman before 40. Early 40’s is likely their optimal age as that crowd still have a willing body and they typically have both a settled home and/or career and are looking for a new challenge.

But if you start restricting that 50-60 chance to KQ that target rich demographic will be disincentivizes to compete. They typically will have little chance for a KQ their first few years. If you say to someone who starts at 45 hey basically you have 5 years to KQ it increases their likely hood of being 1 and done.
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