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Upgrade groupset or upgrade bike?
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I would like di2 on my tri bike; partly because I live and race nowhere that's flat and I'd like to be able to shift from the basebars as well as the aero bars, and partly because I just want it.

Option 1) I have a quote for about $3K to upgrade my Felt IA16, which I've had for ~4 years and fits me well. It would be the 11-speed Ultegra di2 because I'm on rim brakes.

Option 2) My LBS is a Cervelo dealer, and I could get a P-Series with 12-speed Ultegra di2 (list is $6,800) at likely a small discount. They would take the IA in trade or I could sell it. Let's say I'd be ~$5,500 out of pocket.

Option 3) If I'm now thinking about replacing my bike outright, should I be thinking about something like a QR X-PR, which would be about $5,700 built with 105 di2 and race wheels. So let's assume I'm at $4,700 out of pocket. Or something else? I live in Maine, so I don't have a ton of dealers on my doorstep to drive around and try one of everything.

I feel like if I'm willing to spend $3K, at that point it makes more sense to upgrade the bike in its entirety. I get di2, another cog on the cassette (I climb like a sack of mashed potatoes, so), and disc brakes, and possibly some level of future-proofing.

Thoughts?
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Re: Upgrade groupset or upgrade bike? [UK2ME] [ In reply to ]
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You should be able to get the Ultegra Di2 parts on eBay and install them yourself for less than $700.

$3,000 is ridiculous.
Last edited by: jimatbeyond: Oct 16, 23 12:15
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Re: Upgrade groupset or upgrade bike? [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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You are assuming a level of mechanical expertise I neither possess nor have the time to learn, honestly. What would a reasonable cost be to have a shop do that, between parts and labour?
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Re: Upgrade groupset or upgrade bike? [UK2ME] [ In reply to ]
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If you don't feel a need to change anything on your bike except the electronic shifting (you don't feel you need disc brakes for instance or are not absolutely in love with a specific new bike model), I wouldn't consider buying another bike.

Nowadays there aren't many triathlon bikes you can buy under 6k and getting a new bike means spending a lot of time adjusting the position and getting used to it and if you have race wheels/training wheels, that would be an additional cost since your old wheels wouldn't be compatible with disc brakes.

What I would do and what you can do if you want to bring down the cost of the upgrade is to buy all the parts online as they can be often bought at a much lower price than what the shop would make you pay. Then you'd ask a shop/mechanic you trust to do the build for you. Swapping a groupset is a big enough job that they should be willing to do it from parts you provide but not all shops/mechanics will be happy to do that (they might make more money from the parts than from the labour cost) although they might still be willing by charging a little extra.
In this case you already have a quote so just ask them what would be the cost if you source the parts.

You'd obviously need to make sure you source the right parts but it's not difficult.
You could also try selling your used parts on eBay (obviously giving plenty of pictures and information that they are used parts and how many km they have). If they have any life still into them you'd be surprised how much you can make off them. Anyhow the things you'd be selling (shifters and derailleurs) have a pretty long lifespan.

An example from Europe, on this website a 12 speed 2x12 di2 direct mount rim brakes di2 upgrade kit is 1300 euros. https://www.bike-discount.de/...e-11-30-direct-mount (note I haven't fully checked this kit is correct, it's just to give an order of magnitude. You might need to add to this kit the extra buttons and cables for the aerobars, make sure you have enough ports in the connector, make sure you have the right type of battery.).
I'm not sure how many hours of labor that would be (2-4?) but I would expect significantly less than the difference between 3000dollars and 1300 euros.
Some parts you may not need (the brakes). You'd need to find a set that doesn't include them or buy all the parts separately or buy the full kit and sell as new on eBay the parts you don't need (individual parts are usually more expensive than what you pay as part of a kit so it's often better value to buy a kit and resell what you don't need as "new in original packaging"). A pair of new Ultegra direct mount brakes should be worth 100 euros at least. Your used shifters and derailleurs might get you a further 100-300 euros all together. All in all you might more than repay the labour costs with what you'd be selling on eBay.

(Also you'd need to make sure your wheels are 12 speed comparable. Otherwise you'd need to buy an 11 speed kit).
Last edited by: marcoviappiani: Oct 17, 23 1:50
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Re: Upgrade groupset or upgrade bike? [UK2ME] [ In reply to ]
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$3k is insane for that upgrade. Buy the parts on eBay or Facebook and find someone competent that you can slip $200 and a case of beer to do it and you'll have over $1,000 left for new-to-you wheels or enough GP5000s to see you out.

If your only option for the upgrade is the $3,000, I would buy a better used bike with Di2 already installed. If you're sticking with rim brakes you should be able to find something.

***
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Re: Upgrade groupset or upgrade bike? [UK2ME] [ In reply to ]
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I'll say replace the bike. A shifting upgrade isn't enough for you to be excited about it - you'll forget about the upgrade within 1-2 weeks of riding it. I actually still like my mechanical road bike shifing in fact (my TT bike is Di2) - the basebar shifting is good stuff yes, but there's something satisfying and irreplaceable about feeling that physical shift click that you shouldn't underestimate.

If you replace your bike entirely though, I almost guarantee you will be excited and happy to ride it for quite awhile. I'm still super stoke about my 'new' bike that I bought in 2021!

I make this recommendation also because it sounds like you can front the cash to get the new bike without hurting yourself too badly financially. If you were really struggling to make ends meet, obviously no upgrades would be your best bet, as the Di2 shift upgrade is not worth the $$$$ premium compared to equally functional mechanical. (You won't go any faster with the Di2)
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Re: Upgrade groupset or upgrade bike? [UK2ME] [ In reply to ]
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I did same on my old IA4.

Dropped at shop and said call when done. Was just under 1800 I think. Ultegra 2x.

I then wanted disc brakes. So I bought a P5D frame and swapped onto there and put the IA4 back to mechanical and sold.

My advice. Spend money once. Get the new bike.
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Re: Upgrade groupset or upgrade bike? [M----n] [ In reply to ]
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M----n wrote:
If your only option for the upgrade is the $3,000, I would buy a better used bike with Di2 already installed. If you're sticking with rim brakes you should be able to find something.

That's not out of the question. The concern I have is that I am a miserable climber and I will absolutely want a compact crank and the ability to run at least a 32t cassette. A lot of bikes that were originally spec'd with di2 have a 52/36 and a short cage derailleur, so even with replacing the bike I'm still looking for additional parts. And are the savings enough to make it a better option than buying new tech on a new bike?


Thinking out loud.... Something I haven't really considered is buying a frameset and building the whole thing from the ground up - which I would probably do with 105 di2 rather than Ultegra. (And by "do", I mean "pay someone to do.") More cost effective? Less cost effective? I have a saddle and pedals that would transfer, and that's about it.

Should I be considering SRAM instead of Shimano?
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Re: Upgrade groupset or upgrade bike? [UK2ME] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
That's not out of the question. The concern I have is that I am a miserable climber and I will absolutely want a compact crank and the ability to run at least a 32t cassette. A lot of bikes that were originally spec'd with di2 have a 52/36 and a short cage derailleur, so even with replacing the bike I'm still looking for additional parts. And are the savings enough to make it a better option than buying new tech on a new bike?


With the "new" 12 speed groups, there ain't really such a thing as these things anymore. There's one Ultegra DI2 derailleur, and it's good up to a 34T cog. There's one bcd for cranks, and it's just a question of what rings you put on it.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
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Re: Upgrade groupset or upgrade bike? [fredly] [ In reply to ]
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fredly wrote:
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That's not out of the question. The concern I have is that I am a miserable climber and I will absolutely want a compact crank and the ability to run at least a 32t cassette. A lot of bikes that were originally spec'd with di2 have a 52/36 and a short cage derailleur, so even with replacing the bike I'm still looking for additional parts. And are the savings enough to make it a better option than buying new tech on a new bike?


With the "new" 12 speed groups, there ain't really such a thing as these things anymore. There's one Ultegra DI2 derailleur, and it's good up to a 34T cog. There's one bcd for cranks, and it's just a question of what rings you put on it.

Yeah, which is another thing I really like. I replaced the derailleur on the IA to a long cage at fairly minimal expense and it was totally worth it. A secondhand bike with older di2 would likely need the same.
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Re: Upgrade groupset or upgrade bike? [UK2ME] [ In reply to ]
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Luddites and forum whinging aside, it's pretty rare that anyone regrets stepping up to a new bike when they can afford it and they don't screw up and buy something that doesn't fit, or is a piece of junk. And you have to work pretty darn hard to buy a piece of junk these days. From what I'm seeing on the used market, it also appears pretty clear that the longer you hold on to a rim brake bike the less you're going to get when you finally sell it. If you *know* you're eventually going to want to move on from the bike you have now, it's unlikely there will ever be a better time to do so in terms of ROI.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
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Re: Upgrade groupset or upgrade bike? [UK2ME] [ In reply to ]
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UK2ME wrote:
I would like di2 on my tri bike; partly because I live and race nowhere that's flat and I'd like to be able to shift from the basebars as well as the aero bars, and partly because I just want it.

Option 1) I have a quote for about $3K to upgrade my Felt IA16, which I've had for ~4 years and fits me well. It would be the 11-speed Ultegra di2 because I'm on rim brakes.

Option 2) My LBS is a Cervelo dealer, and I could get a P-Series with 12-speed Ultegra di2 (list is $6,800) at likely a small discount. They would take the IA in trade or I could sell it. Let's say I'd be ~$5,500 out of pocket.

Option 3) If I'm now thinking about replacing my bike outright, should I be thinking about something like a QR X-PR, which would be about $5,700 built with 105 di2 and race wheels. So let's assume I'm at $4,700 out of pocket. Or something else? I live in Maine, so I don't have a ton of dealers on my doorstep to drive around and try one of everything.

I feel like if I'm willing to spend $3K, at that point it makes more sense to upgrade the bike in its entirety. I get di2, another cog on the cassette (I climb like a sack of mashed potatoes, so), and disc brakes, and possibly some level of future-proofing.

Thoughts?

$3k for an upgrade is highway robbery.

Granted, it is quite time consuming to route wires on a TT bike, but even granting $500 for the removal of previous cables and installation of Di2. Here are the reasonable charges for 8050 series:
-FD + RD, $275
-SW-R671 shifters, $120
-A-junction (whether RS910 or EW-67), $80
-DN110 battery, $80
-Various wires, $100 (usually $25 per)
-B-junction (JC-41), $20

That's $675 for those parts. If one is feeling fancy and wants bullhorn shifters, $150 for ST-R8060, $90 for two Y-junction (to streamline wire routing), and $80 for 4x JC-200 splicers. The parts should cost less than $1,000 (more like $850 if one were patient). $1,500 all in with installation (and very easy to do under $1,350).

The 8050 short cage RD can run 34t (despite official rear cog capacity of 30t). The 8050 long cage RD has an official rear cog capacity of 34t (and likely able to run 38t, despite that being an uncommon cog for a cassette).

$3k sounds more like an I-don't-wanna-do-this, but I could if you pay me enough price.
Last edited by: echappist: Oct 18, 23 14:27
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Re: Upgrade groupset or upgrade bike? [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Bingo!
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Re: Upgrade groupset or upgrade bike? [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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If you think that's highway robbery, try getting some quotes in HCOL areas for home repairs and installs.

Some actual realistic quotes from my area in Norcal:

Toilet flapper change: $300 wanted from the plumber. Seriously! I even told him I could change it out myself in 1 minute (my problem was the gasket under the whole arrangement) but despite him being at my house and looking at the same toilet he said $300 for the flapper alone. I ended up fixing it myself.

Capping a water spigot outdoors so I could install an EV charger. $150 just to put a metal cap on the spigot.

Outdoor LED pathlight installs. $200 per light, and I provide the lights. Costed thousands to install, but only 3-4 hours of time.

Bike gouging is cheap compared this stuff!
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Re: Upgrade groupset or upgrade bike? [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
$3k sounds more like an I-don't-wanna-do-this, but I could if you pay me enough price.


That’s fair. I mean, I don’t wanna do the work either! They did say they’d done the same upgrade on another IA and were basing the cost on that.

In their defense, I did go into the shop primed and ready to buy a Cervelo and they wanted to at least quote out the upgrade, so it’s not like they just wanted to make it so unpalatable that I buy a new bike. That just happens to be where the pricing has ended up.

I am someone who will willingly pay what it costs to get things done if it’s not something I have the time, expertise, or desire to do myself (I’m damned if I’ll pay someone to do something I can do myself though!), but this is on the tipping point of “what makes the most sense?” for me.
Last edited by: UK2ME: Oct 19, 23 5:39
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Re: Upgrade groupset or upgrade bike? [UK2ME] [ In reply to ]
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Have you considered SRAM wireless? You would only need the front and rear derailleurs and button shifters on the aero bars. No wiring so you should actually be able to do it yourself.

My friend upgraded his road bike and said the upgrade was the easiest he's ever done. You can then upgrade the other components at your leisure.
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Re: Upgrade groupset or upgrade bike? [karlw2000] [ In reply to ]
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Possibly my only legitimate reason to want to upgrade is to have shifting on both aero and base bars. How much more complicated would that make shifting to SRAM?

I presume I’d have to unwire a bunch of stuff, too… but that has to be easier than pulling new cables. Or maybe not, because I still need to brake?!
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Re: Upgrade groupset or upgrade bike? [UK2ME] [ In reply to ]
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Here's an old 2020 article that describes the process:

https://www.triathlete.com/gear/bike/sram-red-etap-why-its-a-triathlon-game-changer/
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Re: Upgrade groupset or upgrade bike? [UK2ME] [ In reply to ]
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Like others have said here $3k is an insane price to do that upgrade

watch some videos on youtube on how to install and adjust the derailleurs
its not a complicated process at all
its actually quite easy and you do not need any special tools to do it
(besides a bottom bracket tool if your swapping bottom brackets also as part of your groupset upgrade)

Im one of the people that have no need for disc brakes and I dont see any major benefit a 12spd setup offers vs. an 11spd setup

My wife is not a fan of climbing either
I set her bike up with an 11-32 cassette and the long cage ultegra di2 rear derailleur when i built her bike recently
You can also use the grx di2 rear derailleur if you want i believe they can run up to a 34t rear cassette

I will say for sure after having di2 bikes
I will never go back to cable shifters again
the electronic is so much nicer

or like someone mentioned above
I believe Sram e-tap does not even need to
be wired
its all wireless and would be even easier to install
(i have never ran sram before so i cant speak from experience on it)
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