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Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles
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Watching the women's WC this weekend it was noticable how few women did the bottle down the jersey compared to the men. Anybody have any reasoning for this? Morphology? Speed? Relative importance of appearance?

I have no idea. It's a 99% faster move that requires little to no testing.
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Re: Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles [mathematics] [ In reply to ]
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As long what is stuffed down top is hydration related it is ok as opposed to a dedicated item to improved aerodynamics

Andrew Garwood
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Re: Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles [garwood] [ In reply to ]
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garwood wrote:
As long what is stuffed down top is hydration related it is ok as opposed to a dedicated item to improved aerodynamics

I feel like this is a rule that’s literally impossible to enforce. Just put an empty bottle in there and say you need to not liter to avoid a penalty. Maybe have someone sitting outside an aid station and catch them not throwing it away but then it’s oh I forgot?

As for OP. It seemed like as the race went on more and more we’re shoving who knows what in there. And the lady with the camelback bladder almost had the zipper come undone at one point. But a lot of junk in some of those jerseys getting off the bike I couldn’t believe it.

One thing I’ve always been appreciative of the broadcasts is they seem to respect personal space and err on the side of caution to not show too much. Whenever racers were adjusting what was in their top they would always turn the camera away. Even goes back to I remember watching chrissie race way back when and she signaled she was about to go to the bathroom and they panned the camera down to the ground and let her have her time.
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Re: Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles [mathematics] [ In reply to ]
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LCB, Ryf, Philip, even Knibb towards the end all had stuff stuffed down their jeresies on the bike. Certainly seemed to at least be in line with the men’s race. How many notable riders did not? Haug, McCauley maybe only ones?
Last edited by: kansaiben: Oct 15, 23 20:16
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Re: Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles [mathematics] [ In reply to ]
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I saw a lot doing it? All the top players.

But it should also just be banned.
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Re: Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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lassekk wrote:
I saw a lot doing it? All the top players.

But it should also just be banned.
From listening to Jimmy Riccitello it sounds like it's not going to last much longer. I don't expect it to be allowed in 2024.
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Re: Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles [mathematics] [ In reply to ]
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I must say that the water bottles handed out in Kona do warant for stuffing it down your top. Who ever came up with the idea of proving bottles that don't fit well in a normal bottle cage?
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Re: Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles [TomvdS] [ In reply to ]
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Agree... they look like the standard sport top bottles I've seen at most races. It will be interesting if they ban the bottles down the jersey in the future.... what do they expect you to do if you? Putting the bottle down the jersey is one of the safest places for that bottle. If that's now illegal and you are at risk of launching that bottle from your cage you now risk a littering penalty. Even if it's unwitnessed and unintentional it's still just not cool to litter. Let us put the bottles down the jerseys!!!
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Re: Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles [TomvdS] [ In reply to ]
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TomvdS wrote:
I must say that the water bottles handed out in Kona do warant for stuffing it down your top. Who ever came up with the idea of proving bottles that don't fit well in a normal bottle cage?

My entire beef with the weird size gatorade bottles that don't fit in bottle holders in the first place. If the "no stuffing bottles in jersey rule" can be traded off for bottles that go in a cage and don't fly out, then that seems like a win win

Dev
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Re: Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Do you remember when IMs used to be half the cost they are now and handed up actual water bottles at aid stations? For the price you pay these days perhaps it should be possible to go back to these and "problem" solved? My wife is not too happy with the collection I have of these still on hand LOL


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Re: Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles [mkb] [ In reply to ]
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Banning bottles in Jersey is like banning aero helmets. It makes no sense to me. It does not cause any hazard.

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Re: Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles [timr] [ In reply to ]
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It actually has the potential to decrease hazards. It provides a safe space for on course hydration by preventing launched bottles.
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Re: Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles [mathematics] [ In reply to ]
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Some years ago--never mind how long precisely-- D'Wife and I were on our annual bike tour for MS. D'Wife is not very good at working her jersey pockets, so it is usually my job to schelp the snacks around for the both of us. This entails stocking up pretty well at the rest stops along the way, and stuffing my pockets more than they were probably meant to carry: snack bars, cookies, chips, pretzels, Tastykakes ... you get the idea

At some point on the road, she asked me to hand a protein bar or something over to her. I sat up, reached back, fumbled around until I found what she wanted and handed it over.

Some dude riding up behind me said "Looks like you got a whole Wawa back there"

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Re: Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles [garwood] [ In reply to ]
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It would definitely be an interesting one to write a rule about. What if it is a gel wrapper in your jersey? What if you have one last ounce of fluid in the bottle? A lot of loop holes. To me the low hanging fruit is the ghetto-tape fairing on the handlebars. That doesn't add any engineering (outside of aerodynamics) value, and has no other use (except to maybe collect sweat and tears).

IG: NCGregory8778
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Re: Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles [kansaiben] [ In reply to ]
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kansaiben wrote:
Do you remember when IMs used to be half the cost they are now and handed up actual water bottles at aid stations? For the price you pay these days perhaps it should be possible to go back to these and "problem" solved? My wife is not too happy with the collection I have of these still on hand LOL

They actually handed out IM branded bike bottles (full of water) at every bike aid station in Lahti for 70.3 worlds. But I bet that's b/c a race sponsor was the local public water supply (not joking) and they needed bottles to hold the sponsor water.
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Re: Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles [mountain_erin] [ In reply to ]
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mountain_erin wrote:
kansaiben wrote:
Do you remember when IMs used to be half the cost they are now and handed up actual water bottles at aid stations? For the price you pay these days perhaps it should be possible to go back to these and "problem" solved? My wife is not too happy with the collection I have of these still on hand LOL


They actually handed out IM branded bike bottles (full of water) at every bike aid station in Lahti for 70.3 worlds. But I bet that's b/c a race sponsor was the local public water supply (not joking) and they needed bottles to hold the sponsor water.

Can you even imagine anything happening like this in America? There would surely be a faux-grassroots campaign against spending taxpayer dollars on a race that's actually backed by Gatorade or whoever lost the bid.
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Re: Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles [Savage8778] [ In reply to ]
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Savage8778 wrote:
It would definitely be an interesting one to write a rule about. What if it is a gel wrapper in your jersey? What if you have one last ounce of fluid in the bottle? A lot of loop holes.

IM Rules (current)
4.02 (g) "The most external part of the wetsuit will fit to the athlete’s body tightly while they are swimming"
5.01 (h) "Cycling with a bare torso is prohibited. Athletes must wear a shirt, jersey, or sport-top/sports bra at all times during the cycling segment of the Race"
https://cdn1.sportngin.com/...AL_March_31_2023.pdf

WT Rule 5.2 (g) (iv) "The helmet must be securely fastened and fit properly at all times and any garment
worn underneath must not affect the fit
when the athlete is in possession of the bike."
https://www.triathlon.org/uploads/docs/World-Triathlon_Competition-Rules_2023_20230208.pdf
Drawing on those for inspiration/format:
Possible draft options:
5.01(h) When the athlete is in possession of the bike, Athletes must wear a shirt, jersey, or sport-top/sports bra at all times: cycling with a bare torso is prohibited. The inside of the top shall be no more than 70mm away from the body" [would allow normal bottles (full or empty) but limit the aero value so athletes wouldn't do it]
Or:
5.01(h) When the athlete is in possession of the bike, Athletes must wear a shirt, jersey, or sport-top/sports bra at all times: cycling with a bare torso is prohibited. The top shall fit properly and any object underneath must not affect the fit.

Second draft would prohibit the temporary use of a top for carrying a bottle: which is a limitation worth accepting, imho: that's what bottle cages are for. As @Dev says:
devashish_paul wrote:
If the "no stuffing bottles in jersey rule" can be traded off for bottles that go in a cage and don't fly out, then that seems like a win win
This stuff down the front is just ugly and I hoped women (sensibly) would be deterred from doing this on aesthetic grounds (but many of the Pros did at Kona; insertion of items completed out of sight in the marquee). It does nothing to enhance triathlon's image, and risks reinforcing some 'nutter' stereotypes.

IM Rule 5.01 [BIKE CONDUCT] (m) Except as set forth below in Section 5.02(b)*, additional equipment that has the effect of reducing wind resistance is prohibited during the bike segment of the Race (whether such equipment is worn under the athlete’s clothing, over the athlete’s clothing, or is otherwise attached to the athlete's body or the athlete’s bike); (DSQ)
* 5.02(b) covers helmets
Nearly all bottle positioning increases drag, except down the top (or the Skipper routine filling bicep to forearm, or the double elite behind the saddle Sub7 wheeze). It's only (positioning) bottles used to decrease drag which need to be caught/prohibited: current Rule 5.01(m) as written could be used.

The way ahead here is deterrence, which will minimise the need for enforcement.
A clear message from race organisers to athletes describing how this rule will be policed/enforced would help, and then informed shouty referees on the route from bike racks to mount line delivering that enforcement (DSQ if not remediated immediately). The "bike segment of the Race" doesn't start till the mount line: cross that with stuff (large bottle, bladder or anything more than gels) down your front and it's a DSQ.
Challenge Roth (presumably under DTU Rules) showed the lead.
Last edited by: Ajax Bay: Oct 17, 23 3:02
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Re: Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles [Savage8778] [ In reply to ]
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Savage8778 wrote:
To me the low hanging fruit is the ghetto-tape fairing on the handlebars. That doesn't add any engineering (outside of aerodynamics) value, and has no other use (except to maybe collect sweat and tears).
Always found that interesting. So if you're a top athlete supported by a company who 3D prints or moulds that for you, it's ok, but sells at 2-3k, yet if someone but $1 of tape to try and get the same benefit we should go after that?

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Re: Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles [mkb] [ In reply to ]
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mkb wrote:
Agree... they look like the standard sport top bottles I've seen at most races.

Most races? I've done 20+ different IM branded races over the years and can only think of one that had these crappy bottles. I think that was one of the US races. All others had bike bottles.
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Re: Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
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BigBoyND wrote:
mkb wrote:
Agree... they look like the standard sport top bottles I've seen at most races.


Most races? I've done 20+ different IM branded races over the years and can only think of one that had these crappy bottles. I think that was one of the US races. All others had bike bottles.

Yes that is my experience as well - over 20 full distance branded races and the only ones with crappy bottles were in America. Most recent race was Lanzarote this year and came away with 2 wonderful 226ers bottles that I am currently using for training.

He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.
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Re: Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles [earthling] [ In reply to ]
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In all European races I've done there were normal sports bottles (bidon) for both the water and energy drink. In the last South African race they had the sports drink in bidons and the water in off the shelf plastic bottles. Obviously it's possible to put that water in a BTA or bladder, but it's just a hassle, especially if you want get that done in the time it takes you to cross an aid station.
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Re: Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting. I've only raced in the US and Canada. They definitely do not use traditional bike bottles in Ironman branded US races.
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Re: Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles [jcbesse] [ In reply to ]
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jcbesse wrote:
Savage8778 wrote:
To me the low hanging fruit is the ghetto-tape fairing on the handlebars. That doesn't add any engineering (outside of aerodynamics) value, and has no other use (except to maybe collect sweat and tears).

Always found that interesting. So if you're a top athlete supported by a company who 3D prints or moulds that for you, it's ok, but sells at 2-3k, yet if someone but $1 of tape to try and get the same benefit we should go after that?

This is the way. If you're allowed to make your own fairing why would you ever buy overpriced carbon parts? If I were selling fancy parts I'd spend a small bit of that profit lobbying the various authorities to only allow products like mine. Triathletes are a gold mine.
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Re: Women's IMWC - Jersey Bottles [mathematics] [ In reply to ]
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Listening to Jimmy Ricitello on The Move podcast-he makes it sound like they won't be allowed in the near future.
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