dropped after 1 lap. seems the group is getting progessively faster (i was originally attracted to it when it was 25mph pace, which is manageable for me). yes my pack skills suck.

We saw recently an excellent case of a pro cyclist changing his weight/racer profile : Jonas Abrahamsen

At 183cm (6 feets) :
initially 60kg, climber
now 78kg, rouleur / puncheur, lead-out, ....

Apparantly the change took a year, motivated by his willingness to be more adapted to most races.

My understanding is that the change was possible because he was possibly in RED-S, and changing his nutrition to something "normal" + some more intensive (including strengh/sprint) training bring him naturally to more muscles (all fiber types). Apparantly it works as he is playing a role in most races he take part in. Sure his FTP boosted with weight increase. Sprint power also. Endurance apparantly still there also.

IMHO, your capacity to gain FTP (and several hour endurance) by gaining weight is very much depending on your current physical state. If your muscle mass is constrained by nutrition (RED-S, not enought proteines, ...) or training (not adapted to develop properly your muscle mass), then you can expect a gain changing these. If it is constrained by cardiovascular, then... you need to train more (and in an adapted way, with proper nutrition, of course).

Plus, FTP (probably not far from your CP), is not the only performance factor, What about your fiber type repartition ?

Message special pour Eltito : maintenant que nous avons un champion du monde Francais nous pourrions demander que certains threads soient en francais ;-)

I have seen Abrahamsen at 18y/o with Norway national team, and he was nowhere close to 60kg; possibly more like 70kg. Do you have any pictures of his thinnest days?

No photo, just several articles with interviews from Jonas, describing the change.
I have no reasons to contest what he said in interviews.
Maybe he went down from when you saw him, going into RED-S. Then up again recently.

60 kg indeed was surprinsing as his constitution look strong.
That is probably why he is now much better at 78kg.

Yeah there is a case where gaining weight methodically can increase both FTP and W/kg, but it's going to be someone like this who is is borderline malnourished. It's fairly easy to lose weight and keep power output the same, especially if quality workouts are still fully fueled. It's also fairly easy to lose too much and see W/kg go down, the big issue being that the line is different for everybody.

What I'm saying is there is a use case for gaining weight to gain watts. But an average Joe haphazardly lifting weights and eating protein powder is unlikely to have as much of an FTP increase as if he put that training time into on-the-bike workouts.

Thank you, great reply

I agree with malnourishment and RED-s being the most likely way weight would increase FTP.

I used to be 62.5kg and am now 70.5kg. This was over the course of 10 years and I don't train quite as much as I used to (tri vs road racing) but I'm still down about 10-20% across the board on power compared to when I raced at the lower weight. In theory if weight boosted FTP I should be at least even or above from the weight. My FTP is actually similar (down about 5%) and my 1-5min is down closer to 20-25%. Just points that training is more important than the weight, as I don't train top end as much being a triathlete now.

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My Strava | My Instagram | Summerville, SC | 35-39 AG | 4:41 (70.3), 10:05 (140.6) | 3x70.3, 1x140.6 | Cat 2 Cyclist

As others have said, we are not even sure what you are trying to get out of this anymore. The general consensus is that you don't need to be able to even squah 150 lbs to push 400 W for 30-60 minutes. Might have said this before, but Bernal and Froome's legs come to mind.

27 mph on a flat course is not that hard if you are in the pack drafting, can easily be done with about 160 W if you know how to spin a gear properly. 27 mph on rolling/hilly terrain is very hard.

Back when I (sort of) knew how to ride a bike as a pack fodder u23 we would hit these averages and I really don't see many 60 year old women keeping up with u23 men racers. So whoever your riding mate is (and assuming you are not exaggerating) she is an exceptional athlete.

this weight gain is assuming i keep up my training and increasing the numbers as I gain weight (so an intverval 10'@280 would become 10'@300)



it is flat. yes some national champion. usually she just hangs on a lap or two (6 laps is the ride), but 2 other sessions she lasted the whole ride.

What are your current stats? Weight, FTP? How did you test your FTP, what protocol did you use? What power meter do you have? Are you still running those rubber tires?

1 hour fiesta island time trials at 270, weight at 160. Garmin pedals. 20min test on smart trainer 303. The rubber tires are on my commuting bikes only

So somewhere around 4W/Kg possibly for FTP.

I still think some structured, periodized training could give you a boost. It’s low hanging fruit for you since you’ve been doing the same thing for years, just the change in stimulus would trigger adaptations.

But I’m sure you will continue the path of “bulking” up to increase FTP.

Good luck, Rog.

If you are 70 kg and can push 300 W for 20 minutes (is this like a standard these days ;-)?) in a reasonable bike position, you shouldn't be getting dropped in these rides. Some something doesn't add up, is your power meter calibrated? Do you have a range of cadences you are comfortable with? It is a lot easier to handle accelerations if you can get up to 120 rpm comfortably. Watch the guys that do the points race for example. How is you 1 minute effort compared to your FTP?

 
Let me give your some other exemples, mostly because I spent some time on the subject several years ago (as an amateur) :

I used to followed the weight given by Wiggins and Dowsett in their interviews, depending on their objectives.

Wiggins :
80kg + when Individual Pursuit and Team Pursuit (before 2010)
70kg approx when going for TDF (2011-2012)
back to 77kg+ for TT world and back to Olympic TP (2014-2016)

Dowsett :
less variance, but yet significative variations depending if he was preparing for Grand Tour (with a lot of mountains) or for hour record / TT.

Myself (ahem.... not quite the same level)
80kg when training for track races (IP, TP, Scratch, Point races)
72kg now training for longer races with mountains (70.3 and trail)

But in all cases, the MOTOR remain the same despite weight variations.

When training for longer races with mountains (more fat consumption oriented), Brad, Alex and myself (I love to say that,,,) focused more on low intensity training, so more slowtwitch fiber (type 1), better fat ox.
As a consequence weight go down, punch go down, long distance W/kg increase.

When training for shorter events (mostly sugar consumption oriented), more focus on higher intensity (but still 80% slow training of course), more 2a fiber, fat ox decrease a bit.
As a consequence weight goes up, punch goes up, long distance W/kg decrease.

FTP (one hour performance) ?
Longer than IP/TP, shorter than a mountain stage...
Seems that when aiming for hour record (one hour !) Wiggins and Dowsett went up in weight. Why ?
Because, apart the slow training (80%) they included a significant larger portion of high intensity to develop some 2a fiber (usefull for one hour, negative effect for 4 hour perf), degradated a bit fat ox, and as a consequence their weight increase a bit (few kgs).
Because fiber 2a weight more than type 1
Because a bit more fat from degradated fat ox
And because weight was not an issue, track being flat, so they can relax a bit the nutritional constraint to preserve health in a high volume context.

But whatever, their performance was mostly directed by the MOTOR (cardio vascular / VO2), coming from genetic AND global training.

Based on your genetic, I agree with most peoples here saying your best chance to increase your FTP / 2 hour perf / 3 hour perf is to work on the MOTOR, so :
1) increase training load, 80/20 or 90/10 of slow / underCP
2) be sure slow is slow (if slow is not slow enough, you inhibate mitochondrial development in muscles, heart become thick, fat ox drop, and fatigue prevent training load increase, ...)

If you train correctly, and eat / fuel correctly, motor develop, muscle mass will self adjust to the motor, fat mass will self adjust depending on intensity repartition.
Weight is a consequence. It shall not be an objective.

The front pack guys, some who are bigger (which is what got me thinking of this in the first place) riding 20-50w on average more than me. My 1 min is not that great, Last specific trainer try it was 420, but then on a out door segment I did similar watts for 2 min (yes I got the CR). Anyways, my sprint ability is not good imo. Add edit.... 120rpm... no way. I ride at 60-80. maybe that is what I need to work on

I too think there is something there. I do masters TTs and the norm is for the top guys to have logs for legs. Except for ex pros who just turned masters.

And yes, for sprint efforts maximum power is typically reached between 110 to 120 rpm. Power makes you go, but your legs feel torque, so rev up to keep up when it counts.

The issue with riding 60rpm on a race (your 27mph group ride is effectively a race) is anytime there's a slight acceleration it's going to completely overcome your legs ability to produce enough torque. Riding along at 90-100rpm you can stand up and cover any attack, let alone a slight acceleration. Couple that with a poor sprint ability (read: low torque) and you have a recipe for getting dropped on all but the easiest of rides.

FTP isn't even that important for criterium racing (again, effectively what this ride sounds like). A 300w 20 min power is cool, but if you have a low 1/3/5 min power you're just going to get dropped when attacks go. These aren't easy answers, but working on VO2 stuff will help, and pack skills will help more than anything. I've been racing bikes since I was a little kid. My NP in races is regularly 30 watts below the norm for the race just by surfing wheels and not being an idiot in the group.

Based on your last post, which is somewhat incongruent to your previous posts, VO2 work on 1/3/5 min power would keep you in the group a lot longer than any weight gain might

some answers i see found in this video i guess..




annoying they weight doped, but would like to see them do 8-16 week program and try again on a flat course, they wont lose much muscle

What answers do you think this told you?

you see the power outputs they have its just they cannot sustain them due to lack of specific training (although greg seems better trained). I need those kind of power spikes

Not an expert, but yeah. That sounds right.

It also isn't just the vo2 work but the ability to recover quickly to repeat those efforts. And yeah, you need RPM's for vo2 and 30sec thru 1min power.

Richmond is a good Zwift workout for this. Ride it at Z2 then give it the "Sagan attack" on the closing two hills each lap. It's a solid vo2 effort into a very small recovery right into a harder shorter 45sec or so attack. From there you can choose to try to spin it out to the line for the lap uphill OR recover the whole rest of the lap.