3 types of flying mounts

Sep 8, 23 15:25

Post #1 of 23 (2331 views)

Sorry for sharing a video that is part tutorial and part marketing, but I think there are some interesting things to learn from it. At least I learned a lot from making it.

I have always done the "step on" flying mount - the second one I demonstrate in this video, and I always thought it was the easiest one to do, but I never tried the others. I wanted to make a tutorial for my customers going through all the different mounts, depending on their preference, so this morning I practiced the full-on flying mount a few times and then filmed it. I was shocked at how easy it was to do a really fast mount. Even beginning at basically walking speed. No crazy flying heroics here.

From the time I initialed my mount until the time the shoes were completely fastened, the mounts took:

ITU type mount, but at a safer speed: 9 seconds
Step on top of the shoe mount: 16 seconds
Put one foot in a shoe first mount: 14 seconds

I kind of want to do a test comparing no flying mount to these three with best effort time to a certain landmark. I think the difference from slowest to fastest is going to be pretty big.

A key to making flying mounts work when you're barefoot coming out of a swim is applying chamois cream or body glide to the top of your foot and your heel before the race. Otherwise the friction against the material is just really high, even on the most wide open shoe. You can also apply it to your shoe if you're worried about it coming off before you get there. Butt Buttr (I think that's what it is called) works great.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Re: 3 types of flying mounts [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Sep 8, 23 16:45

Post #2 of 23 (2284 views)

This is pretty cool to do an analysis on this detail. I think there's a bit missing on the practical application though:

T1 almost always leads into an uphill. Mounts where you're not pedaling for a few seconds are WAY worse on uphills. 9 seconds of coasting will bring you to a stop on a gentle gradient. If it's flat out of T1 there isn't a ton of difference, as you proved in the video it's like 7 seconds. If it's immediately uphill after T1 the choice has to be feet on top of shoes until it's reasonably flat, then one foot at a time keeping speed up. So it's pretty course dependent.

All of that said, most triathletes should take 30 min and learn to do a flying mount. It's easy AF and no matter how you get your shoes on it's going to be 10+sec faster than the inglorious stop-at-the-line-and-step-through-the-frame.

Re: 3 types of flying mounts [mathematics] [ In reply to ]

Sep 8, 23 16:53

Post #3 of 23 (2276 views)

Well, the great thing about the jump on the bike mount is that you can pedal even as you are getting your feet in, as I am doing in this video. You do need enough time to get your toes in - a few seconds. So if it goes uphill suddenly, don't miss! Or as you suggest, choose one of the other two styles.

The time saved is not only the 10 seconds stopped at the mount line, but also the 10-20 seconds putting the shoes on in T1, and perhaps the time difference of running with vs without bike shoes on. Could be 30 seconds total maybe. I'll do a comparison soon, I think.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Re: 3 types of flying mounts [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Sep 8, 23 16:54

Post #4 of 23 (2274 views)

So what do you call a cyclocross style, both feet off the ground as you leap onto the saddle mount?

I thought that was a flying mount.

Re: 3 types of flying mounts [velorunner] [ In reply to ]

Sep 8, 23 16:58

Post #5 of 23 (2264 views)

I think the term is flexible, however the first mount in the video is similar to a cyclocross mount. Biggest difference with cyclocross is that you already have shoes on your feet.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Re: 3 types of flying mounts [mathematics] [ In reply to ]

Sep 8, 23 17:06

Post #6 of 23 (2250 views)

mathematics wrote:

This is pretty cool to do an analysis on this detail. I think there's a bit missing on the practical application though:

T1 almost always leads into an uphill.

Huh?

Re: 3 types of flying mounts [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Sep 8, 23 17:42

Post #7 of 23 (2221 views)

RowToTri wrote:

Well, the great thing about the jump on the bike mount is that you can pedal even as you are getting your feet in, as I am doing in this video. You do need enough time to get your toes in - a few seconds. So if it goes uphill suddenly, don't miss! Or as you suggest, choose one of the other two styles.

The time saved is not only the 10 seconds stopped at the mount line, but also the 10-20 seconds putting the shoes on in T1, and perhaps the time difference of running with vs without bike shoes on. Could be 30 seconds total maybe. I'll do a comparison soon, I think.

Wholeheartedly agree. Anything is better than putting your shoes on in transition, and the more suited you can carry onto the bike the better you'll be. How you put your shoes on after that is up for debate

Re: 3 types of flying mounts [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]

Sep 8, 23 17:44

Post #8 of 23 (2215 views)

DFW_Tri wrote:

mathematics wrote:

This is pretty cool to do an analysis on this detail. I think there's a bit missing on the practical application though:

T1 almost always leads into an uphill.

Huh?

Most tris are open water swims. Most open water swims are in bodies of water. Most roads are not underwater.

Re: 3 types of flying mounts [velorunner] [ In reply to ]

Sep 8, 23 20:42

Post #9 of 23 (2115 views)

Quote:

So what do you call a cyclocross style, both feet off the ground as you leap onto the saddle mount?

Well, in cyclocross we call that type of mount "doing it the wrong way".

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Re: 3 types of flying mounts [mathematics] [ In reply to ]

Sep 9, 23 6:48

Post #10 of 23 (1997 views)

mathematics wrote:

DFW_Tri wrote:

mathematics wrote:

This is pretty cool to do an analysis on this detail. I think there's a bit missing on the practical application though:

T1 almost always leads into an uphill.

Huh?

Most tris are open water swims. Most open water swims are in bodies of water. Most roads are not underwater.

Ok I will grant you there is often some (in my experience, small) incline from the water to T1.
But you are talking about hills out of T1 as it relates to a flying mount. I don’t agree at all that the ride out of T1 leads to an uphill even if the transition from swim to T1 may have been uphill.

Re: 3 types of flying mounts [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Sep 9, 23 7:00

Post #11 of 23 (1985 views)

fredly wrote:

Quote:

So what do you call a cyclocross style, both feet off the ground as you leap onto the saddle mount?

Well, in cyclocross we call that type of mount "doing it the wrong way".

Agreed.

Not to mention all the hand wringing over this when cross folks have to do this in slick mud like 10x per race while already redlined. Or during their second race of the day.

Pros and elite amateur sure, shoes on bike. Watching the fail videos of tri the average joe simply cannot practice enough to do the ‘going 15mph shoe install’. The folks who can do it far overestimate the skills of the folks who cannot.

Re: 3 types of flying mounts [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Sep 9, 23 8:32

Post #12 of 23 (1931 views)

fredly wrote:

Quote:

So what do you call a cyclocross style, both feet off the ground as you leap onto the saddle mount?

Well, in cyclocross we call that type of mount "doing it the wrong way".

What do you mean? What other way to do it is there?

@8:37.

Last edited by: velorunner: Sep 9, 23 8:37

Re: 3 types of flying mounts [velorunner] [ In reply to ]

Sep 9, 23 9:06

Post #13 of 23 (1908 views)

This is a terrible instructional, but it's still pretty hard to miss that he's demonstrating the mount without his plant foot ever leaving the ground. The only "leap" is in his (bad) description of what he's doing. Of course, he then blows this up with "gusto".

His advice to the shorter rider is just awful, because he really just doesn't appear to understand the mechanics of what he's attempting to teach.

1 star out of 5. We'd politely ask him to sit in on our beginner clinic before we let him talk to new riders at our weekly CX practice.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Re: 3 types of flying mounts [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Sep 9, 23 11:32

Post #14 of 23 (1843 views)

I'm not referring to the instruction, just the person at 8:37 in the video.

I tried to find just MvdP or Pidcock, but more trouble than it's worth.

I know how to do a flying mount (I've raced CX), I'm just not sure what you mean by saying that having both feet off the ground is the wrong way.

Re: 3 types of flying mounts [velorunner] [ In reply to ]

Sep 9, 23 13:01

Post #15 of 23 (1802 views)

Quote:

I know how to do a flying mount (I've raced CX)

Not for nothing, this line is typically followed in short order by a pretty awful remount, at least IME. You may have a great remount, but most folks don't. Even people who are really damn fast... that's why I've had more than one team pay me to fix this for their pro riders (he says, whipping out the expert fallacy).

There are some long winded thoughts on remounts somewhere on the blog link in my bio, but in (really!) short form, for a basic remount you should learn to slide onto the saddle with your post foot still in contact with the ground. If you're jumping, you're doing it wrong.
Yes, both feet wind up off the ground... kinda hard to pedal if that doesn't happen. But your inner thigh is on the saddle when that happens. No jumping with both legs off the ground at the same time.

No caveat for people with shorter legs. Unless you're VdH, who mounts like he's jumping on a pommel horse, which he can get away with because he's literally an ex-gymnast.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Re: 3 types of flying mounts [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Sep 9, 23 13:18

Post #16 of 23 (1791 views)

fredly wrote:

Quote:

I know how to do a flying mount (I've raced CX)

Not for nothing, this line is typically followed in short order by a pretty awful remount, at least IME. You may have a great remount, but most folks don't. Even people who are really damn fast... that's why I've had more than one team pay me to fix this for their pro riders (he says, whipping out the expert fallacy).

There are some long winded thoughts on remounts somewhere on the blog link in my bio, but in (really!) short form, for a basic remount you should learn to slide onto the saddle with your post foot still in contact with the ground. If you're jumping, you're doing it wrong.
Yes, both feet wind up off the ground... kinda hard to pedal if that doesn't happen. But your inner thigh is on the saddle when that happens. No jumping with both legs off the ground at the same time.

No caveat for people with shorter legs. Unless you're VdH, who mounts like he's jumping on a pommel horse, which he can get away with because he's literally an ex-gymnast.

Interesting. Thanks for the explanation, and maybe it's just me, but I don't see it. I've watched a ton of the SuperPrestige and World Cup races this winter and it seems almost every single pro is jumping with both feet off the ground as they make contact (a few very slow mounts are sliding on to the saddle with one foot on the ground in the thick mud).

Take Diegem (cause it was a great race):

@25:18, for example, in the pit. WvA, MvdP, and Pidcock.

Seems every remount throughout the race, both legs off the ground.

Re: 3 types of flying mounts [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Sep 9, 23 13:30

Post #17 of 23 (1779 views)

You should probably practice with a bottle in the saddle cage :)

What's your CdA?

Re: 3 types of flying mounts [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]

Sep 9, 23 14:17

Post #18 of 23 (1764 views)

burnthesheep wrote:

fredly wrote:

Quote:

So what do you call a cyclocross style, both feet off the ground as you leap onto the saddle mount?

Well, in cyclocross we call that type of mount "doing it the wrong way".

Agreed.

Not to mention all the hand wringing over this when cross folks have to do this in slick mud like 10x per race while already redlined. Or during their second race of the day.

Pros and elite amateur sure, shoes on bike. Watching the fail videos of tri the average joe simply cannot practice enough to do the ‘going 15mph shoe install’. The folks who can do it far overestimate the skills of the folks who cannot.

I'm not trying to be insulting to others, but I have to agree. Other than perhaps the top five percent of athletes, I would think that the flying mount in multisport at best will slow the athlete (and nearby athletes) down, while increasing the risk (and perhaps spectator enjoyment) of carnage. I tend to think that there are other places to gain the margin of a few seconds. I put this into the same category as athletes attempting to refill on the bike fluid storage in a long course race. But so be it.

Re: 3 types of flying mounts [velorunner] [ In reply to ]

Sep 9, 23 14:20

Post #19 of 23 (1764 views)

These days, most of the male euros do an entirely different type of remount which requires a lateral hip flare motion that is outside the scope of this thread (and, again, on the blog somewhere). There are very few high speed remounts in men's world cup level racing anymore - as most riders are hopping the barriers - so they typically use a remount method that's better suited to the demands of the race. Female world level racing is more useful to observe for the vast majority of cx riders.
Even so, the basic theme of "leg makes contact before (or *as*) plant foot leaves ground" remains.
That *as* is pretty important. When you're doing this correctly, it all happens really damn quickly. It's also true that the perfect is the enemy of the good, and when your bike is bouncing around sometimes you need to bounce with it, and you fudge what you have to to make things work. This, of course, is best enabled by getting really good at doing things the "right" way first.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Re: 3 types of flying mounts [G. Belson] [ In reply to ]

Sep 9, 23 14:24

Post #20 of 23 (1761 views)

G. Belson wrote:

You should probably practice with a bottle in the saddle cage :)

That caught me out the first time I bolted them on in a training ride! (A local century sportive) That real "oh, shit, didnt see that coming" moment!

Re: 3 types of flying mounts [G. Belson] [ In reply to ]

Sep 9, 23 14:44

Post #21 of 23 (1751 views)

G. Belson wrote:

You should probably practice with a bottle in the saddle cage :)

Oh yes.... that could be embarrassing.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Re: 3 types of flying mounts [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 23 8:45

Post #22 of 23 (1616 views)

I remember this old video of Peter Reid in T1, trying to do a flying mount and failing repeatedly, knocking his bottles down, etc. Total disaster :)

RowToTri wrote:

G. Belson wrote:

You should probably practice with a bottle in the saddle cage :)

Oh yes.... that could be embarrassing.

What's your CdA?

Re: 3 types of flying mounts [G. Belson] [ In reply to ]

Sep 10, 23 12:18

Post #23 of 23 (1557 views)

G. Belson wrote:

You should probably practice with a bottle in the saddle cage :)

I've made this mistake. Many years of racing with a cross mount then when bought my cervelo with the bottle mount I went into auto pilot and bumped the bottle and bent the alloy cage.

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