Nice to see you doing a bit more work in the pool. Will we see a masters come back ?

pretty interesting product and provides a lot of data. I will watch your vids and enjoy them and glad you are getting some results and explanations with your squad. But I don't know i will be running to get one for myself as I don't even have a smart watch yet so I have a few rungs to climb before going to a hand sensor...

I wonder how people plan on building that into a program long term - maybe certain sessions you can put them on during a set and then check point later on? as opposed to 1 on 1 work

My questions are:

- did the former team usa member really hit high 50s propulsive, which is double and a bit what you were doing? Seems like a lot
- is there too much data for someone who doesn't know swimming ? On the bike and power meter situation you just have watts, and then there are aero and drag co-efficients, but you don't see those on your power meter. I wonder if they could simplify propulsive force / some aggregated drag factor to avoid having too much data
- will this be better than under and over water filming? I am intersted to see how this gets built into the elite swim world and what this product can do in conjunction with filming work. Many elites are filmed multiple times a week

Thanks for posting this. It's very interesting and something I could see myself using.

I admit this seems over my price threshold though, and I'm not happy about required subscription fees for use; it's probably a deal-breaker for me. The app and software seem nice but being locked into a subscription seems unnecessary.

I also wonder how much this can provide at some level? That is, a lot of swimming form is probably about reducing drag from other parts of your body, and it's not clear how that would show up in a sensor reading. It still seems pretty useful but I wonder how it would best be used as part of an entire training program, maybe differently by people in different situations.

You also mentioned the problem of people going down unimportant rabbit holes — I wonder how you'd prevent that or teach someone to recognize it and reorient.

I'm trying to get back into shape. I've lost 15 pounds so far. The main goal was to see if I could train up exclusively in an endless pool to swim a fast 50 free in a meet. When I started there were obvious limitations to what you can do in the endless pool with training for a sprint or distance event. For sprinting, the pool only goes :51/100 so that's 25.5 for a 50. Even at my age and lack of fitness isn't very fast.

I plan to write something a little more in depth about this but since you spotted it in the videos, I'll talk about it a little. The endless pool isn't great for training. One on one work it can't be beat. But exclusively training in it isn't a good idea. I've been swimming exclusively in the endless pool since late 2020. Back in February of this year, I swam in a pool in Austin for the first time since 2020. My stroke felt weird. The best description I can come up with is kind of like the first time you run on a treadmill and get off and you still feel like you're running. I didn't think about it too much since I wasn't swimming in the pool a lot.

Fast forward to a few weeks ago and I got the sensors and starting using them on myself. I noticed the downward press right away in the data and then as you pointed out the difference between mine and the athlete (former national team swimmer) in the first video. I was having a tough time figuring it out. Then I did a clinic over in Austin again and swam in a pool before I drove back. I was focused on it and I figured out what the "weird" feeling was - I have a hole in the stroke for about 3-4 inches after I set the catch. It doesn't feel like I'm holding any water. Then it hit me. It's the endless pool. The current is pressing my back end down. I have enough core engagement and enough connection to the front of the stroke where I can hold my back end up against the current. But that extra pressure on my hands at the catch and for the first few inches after the catch have cost my stroke and feel for the water.

To your questions:



Yes, see response above. Most of the best distance swimmers are in the mid 60s to 70s. She hasn't competed for a few years and when we filmed hadn't swam in probably 4 months.


I think for your average triathlete there is too much data and without enough context and enough knowledge/experience on what to fix and how to fix it.


No. It'll be a compliment. They've already released an update to the software to allow you to sync video to the data.

Thanks for the great questions and if you have any others, let me know.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

I understand. But when you see how much data there is and how much processing is going on with the backend software that isn't on your phone, there has to be a subscription. They wouldn't be able to pay for all the server time they are using without it.


You're kind of right and kind of wrong. You can see it, particularly in the visualization of the force, where it shows where you are directing force.
Below are two different swimmers. The first one is about 1:35/100 yards and you can see a lot of force is directed off to the sides. The second is a sub 1:10/100 swimmer and it's more directed straight back in a thin line. That has everything to do with how the athletes are moving in the water. The first athlete is creating a lot of drag because they aren't holding a straight line. The second one is.

I hope this helps.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Yeah your point is well taken about the force profile. I could see it being really useful together with pace information. It is tempting to me to buy a set although I still think the subscription would be a no go for me; it's difficult for me to imagine it couldn't be processed on a laptop or desktop.

It would be interesting to see some written case studies, with output and a discussion of pace and what's going on in terms of form and endurance etc, maybe with some actual swim videos (with underwater shots etc) as examples. For some reason my attention to written material is better than to pure video.

Big fan of yours Tim

Thank you for the post and the videos

To me $800 + $100 - $150/year for software for something for swimming is not a ton of money when comparing to people paying 7k, 9k and now 12k for KU bike plus the yearly fee for Zwift/TR etc

For me on a 2011 P3 (meaning didn’t spend a huge amount on my bike)

I think spending $800 of it helps with swimming is not crazy

Thanks. Always appreciate the kudos.

In the grand scheme of triathlon things and especially for a coach, this isn’t very expensive or costly. It does have value and can give more insight into a swimmer’s stroke and inefficiencies. For the average triathlete, I think it might be a little bit overkill and without the proper context could make the stroke worse and not better. The one thing you realize from all the data is how much can be improved. But an experienced coach could guide the athlete - focus on this right now and not this. Do this to fix that. Because at the end of the day it’s just data.

Thanks again for your reply. If you have any other questions, let me know. It always helps me if you like, share and comment on the videos.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Sounds like it has been a bit of fun for you. 50 free is a pretty relaxed event to race, compared with say a 100.

Don't know what you think but pretty sure if you spent a couple of hrs in a normal pool over a few weeks you could get that feel back quick enough as you have been able to identify it / feel it for yourself. probably you could work on blast kick work in an endless pool pretty easy

Find it quite amazing that the differential between someone at that level (nat team ) and someone like yourself (very good swimmer but not the marginal fraction of swimmers who are nat team) can be measured as almost double of propulsive force. trying to imagine that they can basically generate twice as much force backwards.

So I understand - it is not the total force generated (as there is drag etc), but the propulsive measure is the percentage of the total force generated that is propulsive?

Kicking in an endless pool isn’t great because the water at the back of the pool is less “stable.” It’s harder to get your feet to grab the water.


That’s what I meant by the endless pool changed my stroke. I don’t think it would be that big of a difference if I hadn’t been in the endless pool the whole time. It probably wouldn’t even take a couple hours. I felt better after about 30 minutes when I swam in Austin a couple weeks ago.

What I need to do is measure my stroke again after swimming in a regular pool and see the differential.

It’s a percentage of the total force generated on your hand that is propulsive. Make sense?

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Thanks that clears thing up for me. I can imagine now what kicking in an EP may feel like. As someone who can’t even kick at the best of times I may in fact go back wards in an endless pool

Do you see a consulting/distance coaching opportunity utilizing the data from this device?

Maybe one in which someone sends you data from a swim/s, you make a suggestion along with drills, etc based on that data, they implement for a few weeks, and then followup?

Maybe similar to sending off a video for feedback?

Yes. The most important thing about the data collected is context. I’ve already had about 25 athletes use it from ex-national team swimmers to beginning triathletes and every one in between. I’ll also start to build a library of pro triathlete data too. But this will be a supplement to video analysis work that I’m do regularly with athletes in-person and remotely.

Make sense?

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

It's been 6 weeks now so I have a few questions.

Have you retested and seen improvements and how so, total speed, force direction in users, etc.

Did you have to have the athletes keep swimming with them to reapply focus or did they all go back to there old habits after initial test.

How much time did you spend with each athlete going over data and are most ( avg swimmer for IM ) able to understand that data and issues or is it over there head.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Maybe, but it seems to me that being able to cross-check between video and the data would be more optimal for the distance coach.