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Home > Forum > Triathlon Forum > How about a discussion regarding promoting the use of Race Ranger for pro fields in non-draft races??

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How about a discussion regarding promoting the use of Race Ranger for pro fields in non-draft races??
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sciguy
Aug 26, 23 6:02
Post #1 of 10 (1172 views)
It was bittersweet to see the significant number of drafting penalties handed out at the Lahti 2023 women's 70.3 championships race. On one hand it makes for a much fairer race for those with their noses more directly in the wind while on the other hand, pretty much wrecks the race for those dinged for a transgression. I've historically gotten the impression that the majority of race officials tend to give the benefit of doubt to following athletes, going so far as to giving out repeated warnings to those they feel are following to close. It would appear the officials at Lahti were more strict than average in this regard. Since following distance evaluation is rather subjective both for athletes as well as officials, I'd think that both would advocate for and enjoy using the Race Ranger system to provide a much more objective means of maintaining legal spacing. Drone shots of the pro field at PTO races seems to bear out the effectiveness of the system when set for 20 meters and I assume it's also capable to be set up for 12 meter. I'd love to hear more from athletes and race officials that have now had real experience with the system.

https://www.raceranger.com/what-is-rr

Thoughts?
Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
Last edited by: sciguy: Aug 26, 23 6:21
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Re: How about a discussion regarding promoting the use of Race Ranger for pro fields in non-draft races?? [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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mathematics
Aug 26, 23 6:44
Post #2 of 10 (1132 views)
1-That light has to be a lot brighter. I'm sure it's certified as visible from however far away, but looking through a fogged up sweaty visor in the middle of a huge effort on a bumpy road a little LED isn't going to be enough.

2-I'm sure it's an expensive system, but having most athletes first experience with it at World Championships is asking for trouble.

3-Is the system currently that it just flags a possible drafting penalty for review, or is it a slam dunk X seconds-in-the-zone unchangeable penalty?
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Re: How about a discussion regarding promoting the use of Race Ranger for pro fields in non-draft races?? [mathematics] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy
Aug 26, 23 9:46
Post #3 of 10 (1047 views)
mathematics wrote:
1-That light has to be a lot brighter. I'm sure it's certified as visible from however far away, but looking through a fogged up sweaty visor in the middle of a huge effort on a bumpy road a little LED isn't going to be enough.

I've not seen the actual LED that RR uses but the LED in my rear bike like is so powerful auto drivers often tell me they've seen me from more than a half mile back. If they aren't using one this bright they ought to be able to.

mathematics wrote:
2-I'm sure it's an expensive system, but having most athletes first experience with it at World Championships is asking for trouble.

I'm not advocating for it to be in use immediately at championship events but wonder why it hasn't been at least trialed at Ironman branded events. Is PTO that much ahead?

mathematics wrote:
3-Is the system currently that it just flags a possible drafting penalty for review, or is it a slam dunk X seconds-in-the-zone unchangeable penalty?

I believe it currently gives visual feedback to athletes that they're close to entering the draft zone with a slow flashing light or have already entered with a rapidly flashing light. It also relays the length of time they are in a draft zone to race official to do with as they please. I certainly could imagine a race official seeing someone was with the draft zone for an occasional second or two use their discretion in making a call. Precision objective measurement with visual feedback provided to the athlete has to be a good thing.
Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: How about a discussion regarding promoting the use of Race Ranger for pro fields in non-draft races?? [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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marquette42
Aug 26, 23 10:06
Post #4 of 10 (1021 views)
What’s the value prop for IM to incur what is likely a significant expense?

I can see why pro athletes would want it because it was takes the onus off them to judge the distance and let’s they race by the little lights but there is little to no value add for Ironman.
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Re: How about a discussion regarding promoting the use of Race Ranger for pro fields in non-draft races?? [marquette42] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy
Aug 26, 23 10:14
Post #5 of 10 (1017 views)
marquette42 wrote:
What’s the value prop for IM to incur what is likely a significant expense?

I can see why pro athletes would want it because it was takes the onus off them to judge the distance and let’s they race by the little lights but there is little to no value add for Ironman.

The value of the prestige of putting on what would likely be considered a cleaner/fairer race is the tough thing to quantify. Right now Ironman is being made to look less than top notch by PTO and Challenge.
Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: How about a discussion regarding promoting the use of Race Ranger for pro fields in non-draft races?? [marquette42] [ In reply to ]
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Bryan!
Aug 26, 23 10:21
Post #6 of 10 (1000 views)
marquette42 wrote:
What’s the value prop for IM to incur what is likely a significant expense?

I can see why pro athletes would want it because it was takes the onus off them to judge the distance and let’s they race by the little lights but there is little to no value add for Ironman.

Downside is that race registration fees would increase.

Upside is a fairer race for all athletes. Additional bonus for AG athlete spectators once tracking is available.
Quote Reply
Re: How about a discussion regarding promoting the use of Race Ranger for pro fields in non-draft races?? [Bryan!] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sciguy
Aug 26, 23 10:29
Post #7 of 10 (989 views)
Bryan! wrote:
marquette42 wrote:
What’s the value prop for IM to incur what is likely a significant expense?

I can see why pro athletes would want it because it was takes the onus off them to judge the distance and let’s they race by the little lights but there is little to no value add for Ironman.


Downside is that race registration fees would increase.

Upside is a fairer race for all athletes. Additional bonus for AG athlete spectators once tracking is available.

To be honest, I can't imagine the device being readily used in the AG field due to limitations created by massive density of athletes getting out of the swim during short time intervals. Perhaps if there was a long enough non-penalized section out of T-1 it might work for them too. At Kona that might be 20 miles. I agree that the tracking element could be great.
Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
Quote Reply
Re: How about a discussion regarding promoting the use of Race Ranger for pro fields in non-draft races?? [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bryan!
Aug 26, 23 10:50
Post #8 of 10 (962 views)
sciguy wrote:
Bryan! wrote:
marquette42 wrote:
What’s the value prop for IM to incur what is likely a significant expense?

I can see why pro athletes would want it because it was takes the onus off them to judge the distance and let’s they race by the little lights but there is little to no value add for Ironman.


Downside is that race registration fees would increase.

Upside is a fairer race for all athletes. Additional bonus for AG athlete spectators once tracking is available.


To be honest, I can't imagine the device being readily used in the AG field due to limitations created by massive density of athletes getting out of the swim during short time intervals. Perhaps if there was a long enough non-penalized section out of T-1 it might work for them too. At Kona that might be 20 miles. I agree that the tracking element could be great.


Prior to race start, any number of sections can be eliminated and identified as no penalty/free zones such as exiting T1, entering T2, narrow bike paths, start of a hill etc. Their web site spells it out quite nicely.
Last edited by: Bryan!: Aug 26, 23 11:31
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Re: How about a discussion regarding promoting the use of Race Ranger for pro fields in non-draft races?? [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
marquette42
Aug 26, 23 10:55
Post #9 of 10 (955 views)
sciguy wrote:
marquette42 wrote:
What’s the value prop for IM to incur what is likely a significant expense?

I can see why pro athletes would want it because it was takes the onus off them to judge the distance and let’s they race by the little lights but there is little to no value add for Ironman.

The value of the prestige of putting on what would likely be considered a cleaner/fairer race is the tough thing to quantify. Right now Ironman is being made to look less than top notch by PTO and Challenge.

More boring you mean? Controversy and judgement calls lead to conversation. Conversations and arguments over penalties lead to engagement. Engagement drives value.

Look at Monday morning chat boards following any sporting event. Huge amount of time is spent debating ‘controversial’ judgement calls. No one says though that those championships or sports are less prestigious because of judgement calls.
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Re: How about a discussion regarding promoting the use of Race Ranger for pro fields in non-draft races?? [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mathematics
Aug 26, 23 12:33
Post #10 of 10 (852 views)
sciguy wrote:
mathematics wrote:
1-That light has to be a lot brighter. I'm sure it's certified as visible from however far away, but looking through a fogged up sweaty visor in the middle of a huge effort on a bumpy road a little LED isn't going to be enough.


I've not seen the actual LED that RR uses but the LED in my rear bike like is so powerful auto drivers often tell me they've seen me from more than a half mile back. If they aren't using one this bright they ought to be able to.

mathematics wrote:
2-I'm sure it's an expensive system, but having most athletes first experience with it at World Championships is asking for trouble.


I'm not advocating for it to be in use immediately at championship events but wonder why it hasn't been at least trialed at Ironman branded events. Is PTO that much ahead?

mathematics wrote:
3-Is the system currently that it just flags a possible drafting penalty for review, or is it a slam dunk X seconds-in-the-zone unchangeable penalty?


I believe it currently gives visual feedback to athletes that they're close to entering the draft zone with a slow flashing light or have already entered with a rapidly flashing light. It also relays the length of time they are in a draft zone to race official to do with as they please. I certainly could imagine a race official seeing someone was with the draft zone for an occasional second or two use their discretion in making a call. Precision objective measurement with visual feedback provided to the athlete has to be a good thing.

Wicked formatting, btw. Good point about the LED's, it just give me pause to have such a small point of light when it could be the entire back half of the device with just a plastic diffractor. As to why IM doesn't use it I think other posters have hit the nail on the head ($$$$).

Recording the length of time in the draft zone and then allowing officials to make the call seems like a controversy waiting to happen. There really should be a hard cutoff, anything over 3/4/5 seconds is an automatic penalty. Would there also be a total infraction count? Like I was in the zone 45 times but only for 1 second each time. These seem like things that can't really be left up to discretion.

Then again if I knew there was a hard line drawn and there was 5 riders behind me I'd brake check, or at least let the power off for a few seconds. It would accordion so bad that the last few riders in line need to come to a standstill to get out of the zone, or come around.
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