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Curious Run Plan
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So, a friend of mine I work with decided to do a run plan - solely on treadmill - in order to do faster 5ks. No triathlon. Strictly 5k run. It goes as follows.
There are no rest in between the 400s, its just a steady climb run. He ran it by me because for him, its simple, easy to do after or before work, 3-4 days a week as time allows, and it isnt boring.
I had never heard of anything like this and coming from the classic structured programs - I had no idea. Logically the progression makes sense, gives top end, but there is no long run or hills. You hit all zones, get all your paces, develop top end in later weeks, end with 15-20 mpw, and based off time of each 400, you will spend more time in the lower paces than the higher paces.

Pure runners - what say you?

week1:
Start at 6 mph. Every 400, increase .2. So 12 400's at 6, 6.2, 6.4, 6.6, 6.8, 7.0, 7.2, 7.4, 7.6, 7.8, 8, 8.2

week2:
Start at 6.2 mph. Every 400, increase .2. So 12 400's at 6.2, 6.4, 6.6, 6.8, 7.0, 7.2, 7.4, 7.6, 7.8, 8, 8.2, 8.4

week3:
Start at 6.4 mph. Every 400, increase .2. So 12 400's at 6.4, 6.6, 6.8, 7.0, 7.2, 7.4, 7.6, 7.8, 8, 8.2, 8.4, 8.6

week4:
Start at 6.6 mph. Every 400, increase .2. So 12 400's at 6.6, 6.8, 7.0, 7.2, 7.4, 7.6, 7.8, 8, 8.2, 8.4, 8.6, 8.8

week5:
Start at 6.8 mph. Every 400, increase .2. So 12 400's at 6.8, 7.0, 7.2, 7.4, 7.6, 7.8, 8, 8.2, 8.4, 8.6, 8.8. 9

From here - he just adds more top end but keeps the starting point the same

week6:
Start at 6.8 mph. Every 400, increase .2. So 13 400's at 6.8, 7.0, 7.2, 7.4, 7.6, 7.8, 8, 8.2, 8.4, 8.6, 8.8, 9, 9.2

week7:
Start at 6.8 mph. Every 400, increase .2. So 14 400's at 6.8, 7.0, 7.2, 7.4, 7.6, 7.8, 8, 8.2, 8.4, 8.6, 8.8, 9, 9.2, 9.4

week8:
Start at 6.8 mph. Every 400, increase .2. So 15 400's at 6.8, 7.0, 7.2, 7.4, 7.6, 7.8, 8, 8.2, 8.4, 8.6, 8.8, 9, 9.2, 9.4, 9.6

week9:
Start at 6.8 mph. Every 400, increase .2. So 16 400's at 6.8, 7.0, 7.2, 7.4, 7.6, 7.8, 8, 8.2, 8.4, 8.6, 8.8, 9, 9.2, 9.4, 9.6, 9.8

week10:
Start at 6.8 mph. Every 400, increase .2. So 17 400's at 6.8, 7.0, 7.2, 7.4, 7.6, 7.8, 8, 8.2, 8.4, 8.6, 8.8, 9, 9.2, 9.4, 9.6, 9.8, 10

this put it at a little over 4 miles with a top ending speed of right around 6 min miles or so.

THEN he just adds repetitive top end.

week11:
Start at 6.8 mph. Every 400, increase .2. So 18 400's at 6.8, 7.0, 7.2, 7.4, 7.6, 7.8, 8, 8.2, 8.4, 8.6, 8.8, 9, 9.2, 9.4, 9.6, 9.8, 10, 10

week12:
Start at 6.8 mph. Every 400, increase .2. So 19 400's at 6.8, 7.0, 7.2, 7.4, 7.6, 7.8, 8, 8.2, 8.4, 8.6, 8.8, 9, 9.2, 9.4, 9.6, 9.8, 10, 10, 10

week13:
Start at 6.8 mph. Every 400, increase .2. So 20 400's at 6.8, 7.0, 7.2, 7.4, 7.6, 7.8, 8, 8.2, 8.4, 8.6, 8.8, 9, 9.2, 9.4, 9.6, 9.8, 10, 10, 10, 10

Race
Last edited by: BigToe: Aug 18, 23 6:19
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Re: Curious Run Plan [BigToe] [ In reply to ]
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In My Humble Opinion, this is a disaster waiting to happen. A body needs to rest and recover. The number of miles per week is relatively low, but the intensity is continuous and HIGH. A body can not continually increase speed for 12 weeks without causing an injury. I like the plan, but I'd extend the time over 18 weeks, with 2 weeks hard and 1 week recovery with light running, stretching, cross training with weights, bicycling, yoga, etc. (repeat).
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Re: Curious Run Plan [BigToe] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like a wonderful plan for a robot. Also great for a human to get injured.
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Re: Curious Run Plan [Lurker4] [ In reply to ]
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Humor me here:

Why injury? 3-4 days a week running then nothing gives back 3-4 days rest. Almost a 50/50 run rest ratio. The volume is not high. It isn't like 2 workouts a week of twelve 400s at above race pace on a track with some tempo and slows thrown in for the week. It seems like it would produce less injury?

I wasn't in the mind that injury would be a thing, I figured the lack of long slow and easy would be the biggest detriment.

but again, humor me here.
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Re: Curious Run Plan [BigToe] [ In reply to ]
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What is goal race pace? What does this runner do at 5K today?
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Re: Curious Run Plan [slow_bob] [ In reply to ]
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Just went to his cube and told him I posted this haha

He said he is at 23 now and "ideally low 19s but be happy with anything under sub 20". Told him its unlikely to drop that much time in 13 weeks but stranger things have happened
Last edited by: BigToe: Aug 18, 23 8:23
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Re: Curious Run Plan [BigToe] [ In reply to ]
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Running faster is where injuries start to occur. Not so much at slower speeds. When all you do is essentially run faster each time, you're not giving enough time to adapt to all the various stresses. There's no chance to let the body adapt to a pace, instead it's pretty much just always faster.

Muscles grow stronger and more resilient at different rates than bone and tendon.

I'd guess tendon issues occur first.
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Re: Curious Run Plan [BigToe] [ In reply to ]
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He'll never be able to get even close to the top end speeds without any type of recovery efforts in between after about week 5. Like there is no way he's going to run 1 mile straight increasing pace even if it's only at goal pace (~20 min).

But sometimes you gotta just tell someone "you do you" and let them go off and give it the ole college try.

ETA: I just saw the times he is running now, yeah he wont even be able to get to top end paces and hold it after probaly week 2 or 3 if he's at 23 min 5k now.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 18, 23 8:59
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Re: Curious Run Plan [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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is it immoral of me to just let this happen because I want to see how this plays out? haha

Tell him that I personally wouldn't do this but have at it if you think it'l work

Edit: I showed him the thread and he is down to be a guinea pig!

Now we can start the betting pool
Last edited by: BigToe: Aug 18, 23 9:06
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Re: Curious Run Plan [BigToe] [ In reply to ]
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"Start at 6 mph"
"Start at 6.2 mph"
And so on ...

So, you're doing this on a treadmill and bumping every .25 mile?

Sometimes, when feeling strong (and maybe a little frisky) I've been known to put in a little kick at the end of a run on the TM, just for fun, and without any sort of plan or structure

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: Curious Run Plan [BigToe] [ In reply to ]
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BigToe wrote:
Why injury? 3-4 days a week running then nothing gives back 3-4 days rest. Almost a 50/50 run rest ratio.

Whoa, so in addition to everything else, he clusters his training days together and rest days together?

Why?

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden
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Re: Curious Run Plan [BigToe] [ In reply to ]
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So, it's just the same progression run workout every day with incremental increases each week. Seems really, really dumb.

No variation. None of the things, like endurance workouts, threshold workouts, and speed workouts, to stimulate the proper adaptations for distance running, just the same progression run on a treadmill every day. Lol! Ok.

He seems to thinks that if they can run a little bit faster next week, then a little bit faster the next, etc. He'll keep improving linearly until he reaches his goal. Training doesn't work like that.
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Re: Curious Run Plan [ In reply to ]
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Did he used to lift weights?
It’s basically 5x5/Stronglifts into a botched run plan.
Last edited by: Boston: Aug 18, 23 15:16
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Re: Curious Run Plan [BigToe] [ In reply to ]
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BigToe wrote:
Now we can start the betting pool

It's a 13-week program so we'll set the Over/Under at 6.5 before he gets injured or quits

I'll take the Under

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: Curious Run Plan [MattRnr] [ In reply to ]
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MattRnr wrote:
He seems to thinks that if they can run a little bit faster next week, then a little bit faster the next, etc. He'll keep improving linearly until he reaches his goal. Training doesn't work like that.
^
This is what I would tell him. Training improvements are not linear and often don't occur in any predictable way. Oh, you can predicted that if I do X, Y and Z consistently, then AT SOME POINT, I will be faster, but you can't depend on it happening on your own schedule.
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Re: Curious Run Plan [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
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Under

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Curious Run Plan [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
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If he truly is running 23 min 5k he likely won’t even be able to get up to speed and hold the final 2 400’s in week 1. But at least w a treadmill it can kinda artificially over speed work for you so maybe he’ll finish 1 week of workouts written as is.

But that would be my guess. Can he even do week 1 written and executed specifically as written. I’d give that as 5:1 odd especially if he’s at 23 min 23 5k pace.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Curious Run Plan [BigToe] [ In reply to ]
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Agree with what others have said. It doesn't look like a good plan & could lead to injury. What's the justification for the low-end & high end paces? Current PBs & goal for the 5k?

Doing a progression run 3-4 times/week just isn't good training. You're going to end up spending a lot of time in the grey zone. You're not going to run enough easy miles to recover. And you're not doing specific sessions that would lead to improvement over 5k. I know the treadmill is easy for stuff like this but I would get outside a couple days/week. On 4 days, maybe something like 2 (truly) easy runs, 1 workout day (build to 5k-6k worth of volume @ 5k pace), and 1 long run (can be easy but should still be going out for something like 80-90min at peak mileage, I would add some tempo every 2nd or 3rd week).
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Re: Curious Run Plan [BigToe] [ In reply to ]
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"solely on treadmill"
"it isnt boring.


Pick one.
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Re: Curious Run Plan [Bob Loblaw] [ In reply to ]
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To be fair, if he's bumping his speed up every .25/every couple minutes, he wouldn't have time to get bored

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: Curious Run Plan [BigToe] [ In reply to ]
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Aiming to run sub-20 minute 5 kilometre by exclusively training 400 metre reps but designs the training program in miles per hour.

If the program isn't unnecessarily difficult, the maths certainly is.

Are the 5km performances he's targeting also treadmill runs? If not, pacing will feel different running in the real world after three months exclusively on the treadmill. Assuming he makes it that far.
Last edited by: satanellus: Aug 22, 23 5:14
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Re: Curious Run Plan [BigToe] [ In reply to ]
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The lack of slow and easy doesn't really matter since he's running negative split longer than race distance within a few weeks.

I'll take the under due to boredom or achilles tendinitis.

***
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Re: Curious Run Plan [M----n] [ In reply to ]
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No one's taking the Over?

I can now see him hanging on until Week 7 before he bails, no matter how busted up he is, just to say "Fuck all you all"

Nah, maybe not

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: Curious Run Plan [BigToe] [ In reply to ]
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So, any update?
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Re: Curious Run Plan [littlefoot] [ In reply to ]
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I happened to think about this thread at the gym last night when I saw a dude ripping along on the TM at 9.0mph/6:40 per mile

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
Last edited by: RandMart: Dec 19, 23 11:05
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