Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: PTO European Open [Race1] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Race1 wrote:
Ajax Bay wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Yes and I'm asking you what strategy are you actually suggesting other than complaining about the current strategy not working?
Like it's easy to say "do something different", but when you actually look at what to do differently, your plan likely would be worse....IE which is why I actually suggested go full blown "suicide pace" just 1 time. Like go for it and win or end up in the medics at mile 8.
That would be about the only "strategy" difference I could actually see working out. Your suggesting of "sitting in" more on the S and B imo would likely cause her worse results because you bring in more runners in the fold imo.
Agree all: as I asked x pages earlier: @race1 can we be clear what the 'alternate strategy' is which might turn the habitual #2 into a win?
Not mentioned, I think, is the excellent exposure she gives to her partners by being (lazily) in the tv frame for a disproportionate amount of time: leading out of the swim and leading at least the first half of the bike.

LCB puts pressure on her competitors by an 'off the front' swim that none of the top twenty can come near and the ability to ride as fast (near enough) as those chasing. I offered the example of Kona last year, where Haug's final 'sting' had been emasculated because LCB (with Langridge) had hammered the bike, Haug had been forced into a combination of overbiking and/or allowing to large a gap (to LCB).
Sodaro won because she had a better than typical swim, stayed in the wheel for nearly all the 180km, and had the best run of the front six. Job jobbed.


Ok, so both of your opinions are that my idea of slowing down and getting to the run even fresher isn't going to make the difference. (Which was my alternate strategy. And its funny because thats EXACTLY what we would tell an Age Grouper. But seemingly at the top end its not good advice anymore...)

Its suggested that the volume she's doing run wise is probably optimal in terms of her resistance to injury/general bio-mechanical make up. So its no good just saying "run more 120km weeks" as you suspect it will just lead to more injury concerns. Though I am slightly in awe that 80km a week can net you a 3hr marathon! I have run that and get nowhere near that on a standalone!

Doing the Suicide race would be a good experiment, but I doubt she'll do it. Sponsors want their person at the finish line at the biggest events against the best opposition. Even if it's 2nd-6th. They don't want them in the medical tent DNF-ing

So what next? I see a lot of people telling me I don't know shit (quite possible) but I don't see anything other than "go all in suicide race" being proposed....

I think what makes your criticism of LCB so off the mark is that you fail to appreciate just how remarkable her record is. True, she hasn't won Kona, but she has certainly won some big races (e.g., 70.3 WC in 2021) and she almost never misses the podium. Look at her results and how many 1s, 2s, and 3s there are. I don't think there is anyone in the last five years that is close to her in that regard. This is despite the fact that her weakest leg is arguably the most important of the three and that she had a significant injury that kept her on crutches for a chunk of last year. She hasn't won Kona in part because she's overlapped with Ryf, the greatest of her generation, and because some outstanding athletes have put together brilliant races (e.g., Sodaro last year). I think it is also worth pointing out that she has beaten every athlete that has snatched a trophy from her. Haug couldn't catch her last year at Kona. So it's not like she can't beat each of her competitors on any given day. LCB keeps putting herself in position to win and she'll end up with a career with plenty of big victories.
Quote Reply
Re: PTO European Open [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TulkasTri wrote:
Engner66 wrote:
Yup, great suggestion, Knibb can match her in the water: 70.3 Worlds last year, her and Knibb plus another girl were together in the water. LCB lost a lot of time on the bike to Knibb.


That’s not how that played out.

The “other girl” was Lotte Wilms, fantastic swimmer and when Knibb was losing Lucy’s feet, Lotte went around and closed that gap for Knibb.

Taylor is a solid swimmer but I don’t think she can “match” Lucy, or at least she didn’t that day.

Hmm ok, seems like you just want to disagree with me on a technicality.

Yeah, I watched the race. And we could argue coulda woulda shouldas all day, but regardless of who closed the gap, they finished the swim together. This did not happen in Ibiza. She didn't almost drop all the other girls, she actually drop all of them.

On a separate note, Sara Perez swam with her in Miami but was not able or didn't want to swim with her in Ibiza. Maybe, they know that LCB goes too hard on the swim and realize it is better to simply stay a bit behind and ride in the front pack?
Quote Reply
Re: PTO European Open [Engner66] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Engner66 wrote:
TulkasTri wrote:
Engner66 wrote:
Yup, great suggestion, Knibb can match her in the water: 70.3 Worlds last year, her and Knibb plus another girl were together in the water. LCB lost a lot of time on the bike to Knibb.


That’s not how that played out.

The “other girl” was Lotte Wilms, fantastic swimmer and when Knibb was losing Lucy’s feet, Lotte went around and closed that gap for Knibb.

Taylor is a solid swimmer but I don’t think she can “match” Lucy, or at least she didn’t that day.


Hmm ok, seems like you just want to disagree with me on a technicality.

Yeah, I watched the race. And we could argue coulda woulda shouldas all day, but regardless of who closed the gap, they finished the swim together. This did not happen in Ibiza. She didn't almost drop all the other girls, she actually drop all of them.

On a separate note, Sara Perez swam with her in Miami but was not able or didn't want to swim with her in Ibiza. Maybe, they know that LCB goes too hard on the swim and realize it is better to simply stay a bit behind and ride in the front pack?

I don't think it's a technicality. When have you seen Knibb come out of the water with Learmonth?
Quote Reply
Re: PTO European Open [Changpao] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Changpao wrote:
Race1 wrote:
Ajax Bay wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Yes and I'm asking you what strategy are you actually suggesting other than complaining about the current strategy not working?
Like it's easy to say "do something different", but when you actually look at what to do differently, your plan likely would be worse....IE which is why I actually suggested go full blown "suicide pace" just 1 time. Like go for it and win or end up in the medics at mile 8.
That would be about the only "strategy" difference I could actually see working out. Your suggesting of "sitting in" more on the S and B imo would likely cause her worse results because you bring in more runners in the fold imo.
Agree all: as I asked x pages earlier: @race1 can we be clear what the 'alternate strategy' is which might turn the habitual #2 into a win?
Not mentioned, I think, is the excellent exposure she gives to her partners by being (lazily) in the tv frame for a disproportionate amount of time: leading out of the swim and leading at least the first half of the bike.

LCB puts pressure on her competitors by an 'off the front' swim that none of the top twenty can come near and the ability to ride as fast (near enough) as those chasing. I offered the example of Kona last year, where Haug's final 'sting' had been emasculated because LCB (with Langridge) had hammered the bike, Haug had been forced into a combination of overbiking and/or allowing to large a gap (to LCB).
Sodaro won because she had a better than typical swim, stayed in the wheel for nearly all the 180km, and had the best run of the front six. Job jobbed.


Ok, so both of your opinions are that my idea of slowing down and getting to the run even fresher isn't going to make the difference. (Which was my alternate strategy. And its funny because thats EXACTLY what we would tell an Age Grouper. But seemingly at the top end its not good advice anymore...)

Its suggested that the volume she's doing run wise is probably optimal in terms of her resistance to injury/general bio-mechanical make up. So its no good just saying "run more 120km weeks" as you suspect it will just lead to more injury concerns. Though I am slightly in awe that 80km a week can net you a 3hr marathon! I have run that and get nowhere near that on a standalone!

Doing the Suicide race would be a good experiment, but I doubt she'll do it. Sponsors want their person at the finish line at the biggest events against the best opposition. Even if it's 2nd-6th. They don't want them in the medical tent DNF-ing

So what next? I see a lot of people telling me I don't know shit (quite possible) but I don't see anything other than "go all in suicide race" being proposed....


I think what makes your criticism of LCB so off the mark is that you fail to appreciate just how remarkable her record is. True, she hasn't won Kona, but she has certainly won some big races (e.g., 70.3 WC in 2021) and she almost never misses the podium. Look at her results and how many 1s, 2s, and 3s there are. I don't think there is anyone in the last five years that is close to her in that regard. This is despite the fact that her weakest leg is arguably the most important of the three and that she had a significant injury that kept her on crutches for a chunk of last year. She hasn't won Kona in part because she's overlapped with Ryf, the greatest of her generation, and because some outstanding athletes have put together brilliant races (e.g., Sodaro last year). I think it is also worth pointing out that she has beaten every athlete that has snatched a trophy from her. Haug couldn't catch her last year at Kona. So it's not like she can't beat each of her competitors on any given day. LCB keeps putting herself in position to win and she'll end up with a career with plenty of big victories.

for the record i'll also argue that when lucy won st george, she put in such an astonishing performance that she would've beaten anyone. give ryf her health back, magically ring sodaro off maternity leave, whatever. hell, get a time machine and fly in smyers, badman, baker, whoever - she wasn't going to lose that day.

i'm prepared to die on this mountain.

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
Quote Reply
Re: PTO European Open [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
iron_mike wrote:
for the record i'll also argue that when lucy won st george, she put in such an astonishing performance that she would've beaten anyone. give ryf her health back, magically ring sodaro off maternity leave, whatever. hell, get a time machine and fly in smyers, badman, baker, whoever - she wasn't going to lose that day.

i'm prepared to die on this mountain.
Agree, Mike. LCB had come down from altitude just (for her) the right number of days before and aced all three disciplines, having been second fastest 3 weeks earlier at the Collins Cup (behind Knibb).
IM70.3 18 Sep 2021: https://stats.protriathletes.org/...ionship/2021/results
Think that's the only time she's had a really good run (NB after a bike where she took minutes out of the next best (Moench and Matthews)). Scroll on for a Superleague cameo followed by hip stress fracture development.
Quote Reply
Re: PTO European Open [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
iron_mike wrote:


for the record i'll also argue that when lucy won st george, she put in such an astonishing performance that she would've beaten anyone. give ryf her health back, magically ring sodaro off maternity leave, whatever. hell, get a time machine and fly in smyers, badman, baker, whoever - she wasn't going to lose that day.

i'm prepared to die on this mountain.


Probably because the run was shorter, so she only had to have half the time gap over the chasers that she would off of a full 112 bike.


Last edited by: Race1: May 8, 23 14:05
Quote Reply
Re: PTO European Open [Race1] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Race1 wrote:
iron_mike wrote:
for the record i'll also argue that when lucy won st george, she put in such an astonishing performance that she would've beaten anyone. give ryf her health back, magically ring sodaro off maternity leave, whatever. hell, get a time machine and fly in smyers, badman, baker, whoever - she wasn't going to lose that day.
i'm prepared to die on this mountain.
Probably because the run was shorter, so she only had to have half the time gap over the chasers that she would off of a full 112 bike.
To help you, the Sep 2019 St George run was about 20.9km. LCB beat next best Jewett by 38 seconds and Metzler (who finished in 2nd) by 84 seconds and Knibb (#3) by 210 seconds. Relative, innit.
Last edited by: Ajax Bay: May 8, 23 16:22
Quote Reply
Re: PTO European Open [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TulkasTri wrote:
Engner66 wrote:
TulkasTri wrote:
Engner66 wrote:
Yup, great suggestion, Knibb can match her in the water: 70.3 Worlds last year, her and Knibb plus another girl were together in the water. LCB lost a lot of time on the bike to Knibb.


That’s not how that played out.

The “other girl” was Lotte Wilms, fantastic swimmer and when Knibb was losing Lucy’s feet, Lotte went around and closed that gap for Knibb.

Taylor is a solid swimmer but I don’t think she can “match” Lucy, or at least she didn’t that day.


Hmm ok, seems like you just want to disagree with me on a technicality.

Yeah, I watched the race. And we could argue coulda woulda shouldas all day, but regardless of who closed the gap, they finished the swim together. This did not happen in Ibiza. She didn't almost drop all the other girls, she actually drop all of them.

On a separate note, Sara Perez swam with her in Miami but was not able or didn't want to swim with her in Ibiza. Maybe, they know that LCB goes too hard on the swim and realize it is better to simply stay a bit behind and ride in the front pack?


I don't think it's a technicality. When have you seen Knibb come out of the water with Learmonth?

Just for the record, acc to USA Swimming, Knibb's best 1650 scy time is 17:12, vs LCB's best 1500 scm time of 16:15, so LCB about 57 sec faster over 1500 m. (The 1650 scy and 1500 scm are very close to the same time-wise.) In a accurately measured 1900 m swim, that would put LCB at about 1:12 ahead of Knibb if LCB gets away such that Knibb can not draft off of her. My understanding is that the top ITU swimmers are around LCB's speed over 1500 m.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Quote Reply
Re: PTO European Open [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Lucy getting lots of love at the Olympic Trials for Tokyo.

Quote Reply
Re: PTO European Open [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ericmulk wrote:
TulkasTri wrote:
Engner66 wrote:
TulkasTri wrote:
Engner66 wrote:
Yup, great suggestion, Knibb can match her in the water: 70.3 Worlds last year, her and Knibb plus another girl were together in the water. LCB lost a lot of time on the bike to Knibb.


That’s not how that played out.

The “other girl” was Lotte Wilms, fantastic swimmer and when Knibb was losing Lucy’s feet, Lotte went around and closed that gap for Knibb.

Taylor is a solid swimmer but I don’t think she can “match” Lucy, or at least she didn’t that day.


Hmm ok, seems like you just want to disagree with me on a technicality.

Yeah, I watched the race. And we could argue coulda woulda shouldas all day, but regardless of who closed the gap, they finished the swim together. This did not happen in Ibiza. She didn't almost drop all the other girls, she actually drop all of them.

On a separate note, Sara Perez swam with her in Miami but was not able or didn't want to swim with her in Ibiza. Maybe, they know that LCB goes too hard on the swim and realize it is better to simply stay a bit behind and ride in the front pack?


I don't think it's a technicality. When have you seen Knibb come out of the water with Learmonth?

Just for the record, acc to USA Swimming, Knibb's best 1650 scy time is 17:12, vs LCB's best 1500 scm time of 16:15, so LCB about 57 sec faster over 1500 m. (The 1650 scy and 1500 scm are very close to the same time-wise.) In a accurately measured 1900 m swim, that would put LCB at about 1:12 ahead of Knibb if LCB gets away such that Knibb can not draft off of her. My understanding is that the top ITU swimmers are around LCB's speed over 1500 m.

From what I remember LCB strung that swim out in Leeds so much the field was as split up as I can ever remember it, I think only Learmonth could hold her feet.
Quote Reply
Re: PTO European Open [Jackets] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Jackets wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
TulkasTri wrote:
Engner66 wrote:
TulkasTri wrote:
Engner66 wrote:
Yup, great suggestion, Knibb can match her in the water: 70.3 Worlds last year, her and Knibb plus another girl were together in the water. LCB lost a lot of time on the bike to Knibb.


That’s not how that played out.

The “other girl” was Lotte Wilms, fantastic swimmer and when Knibb was losing Lucy’s feet, Lotte went around and closed that gap for Knibb.

Taylor is a solid swimmer but I don’t think she can “match” Lucy, or at least she didn’t that day.


Hmm ok, seems like you just want to disagree with me on a technicality.

Yeah, I watched the race. And we could argue coulda woulda shouldas all day, but regardless of who closed the gap, they finished the swim together. This did not happen in Ibiza. She didn't almost drop all the other girls, she actually drop all of them.

On a separate note, Sara Perez swam with her in Miami but was not able or didn't want to swim with her in Ibiza. Maybe, they know that LCB goes too hard on the swim and realize it is better to simply stay a bit behind and ride in the front pack?


I don't think it's a technicality. When have you seen Knibb come out of the water with Learmonth?


Just for the record, acc to USA Swimming, Knibb's best 1650 scy time is 17:12, vs LCB's best 1500 scm time of 16:15, so LCB about 57 sec faster over 1500 m. (The 1650 scy and 1500 scm are very close to the same time-wise.) In a accurately measured 1900 m swim, that would put LCB at about 1:12 ahead of Knibb if LCB gets away such that Knibb can not draft off of her. My understanding is that the top ITU swimmers are around LCB's speed over 1500 m.


From what I remember LCB strung that swim out in Leeds so much the field was as split up as I can ever remember it, I think only Learmonth could hold her feet.

Which is as it should be: the swim should matter and not just be a warmup for the rest of the race, as it often is in the half and full iron races. In this PTO Euro race, the swim did matter as Neumann essentially won it on the swim. Copied from post 461 above:

I am simply going on their splits. Their bike splits were identical at 1:50:07; Neumann swam 22:53 vs Blu's 23:42, or 49 sec faster; Blu ran 58:29 vs Neumann's 58:56, or 27 sec faster. Neumann won by 27 sec, 22 sec of which came from his swim and presumably he was 5 sec faster in his transitions. Obv he would not have won if he had not had stellar bike and run splits but in the final analysis it was his faster swim that enabled the win. Had Blu managed to go 23:00 on the swim, he would have won.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Quote Reply
Re: PTO European Open [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Not replying anyone in particular...
1. What happened with Sodaro? DNF?
2. Uberunners are not bad bikers anymore and still hold the swim very well (Haug, Gentle, Jewett, Sodaro..)How can you beat them? I just see one girl that might: Taylor Knibb. Despite I love LCB, she´s got too much deficit in her run. She even looks big compared to Haug or Sodaro considering she is damn slim
3. If Alistair keeps healthy for a while he´s got something big within his hands this year: 70.3 or IM worlds or any PTO open. I love the guy despite I am spanish and a Gomez supporter (hope Javier comes back stronger next month..)
4. Max Neumann is a beast! It is shocking that he beat Blummenfelt, the best triathlete by far in middle distance right now.... Also suprised by Ditlev...he ´s polished his weaknesses. It is one to watch out in the IM worlds.

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P
Quote Reply
Re: PTO European Open [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ThailandUltras wrote:
Lucy getting lots of love at the Olympic Trials for Tokyo.

Thanks for that video. I had totally forgotten that Lucy very nearly won that 1500 lcm and finished in 16:46, only 0.17 sec behind the fastest girl. This just shows what a great swimmer she still is despite all her B and R training.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Quote Reply
Re: PTO European Open [juanillo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
juanillo wrote:
2. Uberunners are not bad bikers anymore and still hold the swim very well (Haug, Gentle, Jewett, Sodaro..)How can you beat them? I just see one girl that might: Taylor Knibb. Despite I love LCB, she´s got too much deficit in her run. She even looks big compared to Haug or Sodaro considering she is damn slim


Well, in Ibiza LCB was beaten only by Haug, who will retire soon, and Gentle, who doesn't seem too eager to go to full distance (in addition to her run being untested in 140.6s, obviously).

juanillo wrote:
3. If Alistair keeps healthy for a while he´s got something big within his hands this year: 70.3 or IM worlds or any PTO open. I love the guy despite I am spanish and a Gomez supporter (hope Javier comes back stronger next month..)


You're fan of Alistair AND Gomez after this? (Wiltshire was working for the Brownlees here to rough Gomez up)
(I don't mind if you are, of course!)



"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden
Last edited by: kajet: May 12, 23 5:32
Quote Reply
Re: PTO European Open [kajet] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It always amazing me that people think Alistair and Javier are contenders...and I've been saying this...checks calendar...for five years.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
Quote Reply
Re: PTO European Open [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TheStroBro wrote:
It always amazing me that people think Alistair and Javier are contenders...and I've been saying this...checks calendar...for five years.

I have to agree. All these podcasts where they said "I thought Alistair was going to run away with it". Let's let every race with Alistair play out into the run. Remember 2018 70.3 worlds where Frodeno blew everyone apart? We didn't think that in the first 5k haha...it's a good watch and not much has changed really with AB's long course racing.

Honestly - I think Javier would have a better chance of success if he were able to come back at a high level, but probably - both are washed.

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
Quote Reply
Re: PTO European Open [dfru] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Javier is now 40. Don't think he has many bullets left to be a contender. He is no Frodeno...and Jan doesn't have many left either.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
Quote Reply

Prev Next