The correct answer is Ruth / thread

Going with a 154-game standard, that makes sense. Throw in how few other players approached Ruth's numbers in his era, and he's the GOAT.

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

Precisely.... and the Saber metrics losers don't have a leg to stand on because of his WAR

Yep, but 15+ to right. Don't know that I can break this down to home v. away.

https://www.fangraphs.com/...&type=battedball

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Offset by the number of intentional walks Bonds had. Imagine his numbers if they pitched to him and not around him.

Including being the first batter to ever be intentionally walked with the bases loaded.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

1st or only?

First. Josh Hamilton was also received one in 2008.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

In other home run news, Albert Pujols hit #700 yesterday. He also passed 2200 RBI’s early this year - just needs 6 more to tie Ruth for 2nd all time

Looks like they’ve got 10 more games left to see how much more he can add to this numbers.

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Matt

Yeah, his resurgence has been pretty cool. He’s already said he’s not coming back after this year, so it was nice to see him get to 700.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Couple of counter-points, with the caveat that I generally agree that PED's had some level of impact on power numbers during that Bonds/Sosa/McGwire era.

1. League expansion - 1993 you had two teams join the league (Marlins, Rockies), in 1998 you had two more teams join (D-backs, Rays). Result is a watered down quality of pitching, where suddenly you had ~50 pitchers who weren't MLB-quality now pitching meaningful innings.
2. New stadiums - Newer MLB stadiums were HR-friendly, smaller dimensions meant more seating capacity. Four new expansion stadiums, along with a few others (Comiskey comes to mind, as US Cell was a HR-hitters haven) opened in the 90's benefited power numbers
3. Coors field deserves its own call-out, it was beyond absurd what was happening there. In 1999 it resulted in 74% more HRs than the average stadium. Is it any wonder that the three players most associated with HRs in this era all played on NL teams?
4. Emphasis on the HR - this period began the sabermetrics craze of baseball, with teams employing statisticians to maximize run scoring. Just like pitching has dramatically changed in the past decade, hitting was revolutionized in the 90's where players were much more comfortable striking out if it meant a higher rate of HRs. The 'three true outcomes' (HR, SO, BB) really started in this timeframe, even if it wasn't commonly recognized until the 2000's (Adam Dunn says hi).
5. Finally, I'll note that MLB has adjusted the baseball, and regulated bats, since the league began. There is no evidence of this but MLB saw revenue and interest in the game skyrocket when HRs increased in the early 90's, and coming out of a 'deadball' era, with Vincent stepping down as commish in 1989, the league suddenly started seeing more HRs and more revenue. Think of the marketing of that Sosa-McGwire HR chase in 1998. MLB LOVED the jacked-up, HR-heavy game, there is no doubt in my mind they were contributing to it with changes to the ball.

Players were certainly beefed up during this era, but as someone else said they still had to hit the ball. And I truly think the factors above played a bigger role than steroids/PEDs.

All that said, Ruth holds the HR record for a 154 game season, Bonds for a 162 game season. No asterisks. Has Aaron Judge had lasik? Unfair advantage if so! Has he had UCL surgery? Unfair advantage! Does he use a sports psychologist, or use advanced stats and pitcher profiles for strategy in an at bat? Unfair! The league will always evolve and go through ebbs and flows, records are records unless someone has clearly broken a league rule.

Well said.

Passing the game down from generation to generation is how the game lives on. Records and traditions exist in order to perpetuate the "same game" between generations. Change is inevitable. Screwball pitchers and line drive hitters are gone, but the game lives on. A Record Book exists not only to document the core "same game" but to allow us to play the debate and argue game when we can no longer run the bases.

You've made valid points regarding hitters and HR's. (Not relevant to the 1990's, but I'll add Aaron playing in the Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium "Launching Pad" as contributing to at least some of his HR's.)

However, I don't have a problem with hitters playing games in stadiums that favor hitters. Or having access to better medical care and nutrition. Or simply playing in an era where HR's are highly valued.

It's different when players are breaking rules, be it corked bats, PED's, or stealing signs with video cameras and banging on trash cans. MLB didn't ban steroids until 1991. Canseco and McGuire using steroids with the A's prior to 1991 isn't the same as McGuire, Sosa, Bonds, A-Rod, et al, using them after that date. If MLB were to eventually ban lasik and sports psychologists, then players who continue to get lasik surgery and see their sports psychologists should be punished.

Given MLB's track record when it comes to enforcing rules and punishing players at the expense of trying to sell the game, I don't see them going after players to root out the players breaking rules by using PEDs.

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

That 1991 steroid 'ban' was nothing but theater. Fay Vincent sent a memo that steroid use was against the rules, however there was no rule or policy in baseball which prohibited steroid use. They didn't test, ever. I totally believe what Barry Bonds said: the league didn't have a rule prohibiting steroid use, they didn't test, and they were promoting the hell out of the guys who were most clearly using at the time--Sosa, Canseco, McGwire. In '98 he was probably the best player in the NL and nearly dragged a very average Giants team to the playoffs, but he was an afterthought - 8th in MVP voting - while Sosa and McGwire finished 1-2 and McGwire was just not nearly as impactful as Bonds, on a team that finished a distant third in their division. After that season he said 'fuck it' and jumped in with the rest of the PED crowd and became a baseball cheat code. Baseball did not ban PEDs, as a rule infraction, until 2005. Bonds' records, and his insane stretch from 2001-2004, should absolutely be recognized as legitimate and if people want to be angry with someone it should be Selig and MLB for not having a clear policy and testing around PED use.

61 in the books.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I've heard a similar argument regarding bodybuilders (or Lance Armstrong). "But they still have to put the work in."


This is a good argument if you are comparing Barry Bonds or Lance Armstrong to you and me. Roids aren't going to magically turn us into champions.

But we aren't comparing them to you and me. We are comparing them to Roger Maris and Eddie Merckx, and a whole slew of people who (allegedly) followed the rules.

I mean, Sammy Sosa practically doubled the number of HRs he hit in a season for years. Out of nowhere he goes from 34 HRs a years for several years to 61 HRs a year.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Definitely. Everyone could be stronger after using steroids. But very few people are good enough at hitting baseballs thrown by MLB pitchers in order to be an MLB player. Given that you're good enough at hitting a baseball to be an MLB player, you'll still be able to hit baseballs after taking steroids. And now you'll be able to hit baseballs harder.

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

It would be interesting to know the fly out-to-HR ratio pre and post steroid use. IOW, did they convert deep fly outs to homers with added power.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

I don't know if that would tell the story or not. It might be that, as these hitters got significantly stronger, they altered their swing plane to hit home runs, whereas previously they were swinging for average instead. So maybe they didn't hit so many long fly balls, because they were looking for good contact to get singles and doubles.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

You'd also have to look at when launch angle and exit velocity started gaining traction. I don't know when but at some point players starting swinging for the fences more.

HRs = $$$$

Avg does not.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

I wonder how a player like Carew would be used today. Obviously hit for average and got on base slapping singles and doubles around.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Ba da bing ba da boom! #62.

lead off...

he was one of my favorite players back in the day