That’s an 8.5/10-rated humblebrag, nicely done!

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

I'd be almost willing to bet good money that 2 behind the seat bottles would be faster in a 70.3 that allows you to keep hammering and totally avoid all aid stations rather than slow down, sit up and run the gauntlet of an aid station.

This whole thread has certainly had me re reading posts trying to make sense of it all...

Not for me. First, they jettison bottles at rough terrain. Railroad crossing at Chattanooga? Bottles everywhere. Second, it's a tough reach to grab that bottle & then put it back, especially if you use an extra-tight cage to prevent the jettisoning.

For HIM's When I finish my first bottle, whether it's on the frame or BTA, I will toss it and then grab the bottle behind the saddle and use that one until it's empty. If I need a third I'll grab it from the last aid station.

Since you don’t have a BTS and I assume there is nothing on the downtube other than maybe an aero bottle cage, does this mean you have nowhere to store that bottle you get at the aid station if you don’t refill it in time? For me that would be an awful lot of pressure to both grab a bottle smoothly and then refill the BTA quickly. The end of the litter zone comes up fast. More power to you for being able to do it.

I’m probably one of those guys some of you shake your head at, but I start with a BTA and two BTS bottles. My stomach doesn’t like too much Gatorade Endurance and I prefer minimizing the number of times I run the gauntlet of an aid station. I drink from the BTA and refill from the BTS bottles, tossing them at aid stations. That gets me more than halfway before I need a station. There is an aero and weight penalty, but the trade off is worth it in terms of getting my preferred nutrition and reducing stress. I’m even thinking of storing a couple bottles at special needs and skipping aid stations all together.

BTW, Cervelo (Phil White and Damon Rinard) published a paper a few years ago saying this was a great approach. They tested in the tunnel. They said the BTA was the faster and BTS was negligeable to faster. In their words :

"At any rate, while test results can vary somewhat, the lesson is that bottles behind your saddle do not have a large penalty and, depending on the design, may have a significant advantage."

I have done this and have found it works really well. I generally choose to do my BTA refills on slower sections of a course (usually uphills) which helps me move about and not stay locked in aero. On flat races it is what it is, but I tend to like not having to be reliant on aid stations, and doing my refills when it makes sense, especially in non-Im branded 70.3's.

I look at the this issue from the perspective of personal logistical race management. I have a "system" for me that works pretty well. I carry three bottles in long distance racing - 1 bta, and 2 bts. 1 bottle is my calories bottle, 1 is Gatorade/fluid replacement, and the third is water. I have a hydration and feeding program that I have dialed in over many years and the "system" works pretty well. This is tried and true through practice and simulation in training. An important part of personal race management is putting all of the pieces together is a way that optimizes your (personal) day. Keep in mind and a nutritional/hydration glitch costs much more than the slight aero penalty.

One of things that I think we tend to miss in our never ending quest for optimizing the individual pieces is that everything is part of a bigger "system" and it all has to work together.

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

I did the same thing too and found it worked well. Instead of refilling my BTA bottle I just swapped it for a full bottle from BTS. Takes an extra three seconds when timed with polishing off a bottle. Hold empty bottle in teeth, snag extra bottle from BTS and move to BTA, grab empty out of teeth and stash BTS. I'll happily take the minimal aero penalty if it means being able to take in the nutrition I'm used to. The weather was 90+ for my 70.3 so I carried three bottles. For my next I'll probably carry two bottles and will utilize the aero bottle on my downtown to store a concentrate.

The other side of that is if your fluid needs are really in the 1L (2x 500mL bottles) range, you can find a few different BTA hydration systems with a 1L+ capacity. Then you've got one of the most aero options, don't need to change position (significantly) to drink (via the straw), and can still swing through an aid station for a refill if needed.

The BTS storage still seems like it would require some degree of getting out of aero to get the bottle out and drink which would be happening more than you'd be refilling. To me, that's the bigger advantage of the BTA hydration system, given that the aero penalty for steady state riding is similar between the two. Adding a BTS cage for grabbing an aid station bottle if needed and deferring the BTA refill part to an uphill/quieter part of the course seems like the best of both worlds if you need more fluids than you BTA holds on it's own.

i think if somebody successfully deploys a BTS system, that's fine. that person should do what trial and error dictates. but i think you hit on the salient points here. my BTA system is refillable and holds almost a liter. i think that ought to last 15 miles. counting what you start with, in my BTA, that's 6 liters. are we drinking more than a gallon and a half during an IM?

i could see a cage back there, empty, in such case you can't toss a bottle before the litter line. you put your empty back there, and toss it at the beginning of the next aid station. historically, we either kept our concentrate in a frame bottle (ideally a bottle designed and supplied by the bike brand, as part of the construct offered for sale), or it was just clear water for drinking and the food and electrolytes came from another source.

but look, i know my lane. i'm not going to tell anybody what to eat, what to drink, how to train, how to race. i'm not going to lecture anyone on aerodynamics. my lane is ergonomics, comfort, and power delivery. it just doesn't seem to me that a BTS is an effective spot for hydration any more than a jersey pocket is an effective place to carry food or spare tires. we used to carry stuff in our jersey pockets and, in triathlon, we grew out of that. even in road racing we stopped putting tires in our jersey pockets and put THOSE behind the saddle. gravel and tri realized that behind the rider was a nonsensical place to put food. road still persists in that nonsense. frame makers have, over the past 5 years, developed hydration alternatives to BTS. either we as manufacturers are failing, or users are failing to adopt what the manufacturers have provided.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I saw a guy at Unbound a few years ago with 2 BTS bottles during the neutral rollout. He had zero BTS bottles about 5 miles in.

perhaps, but I stand by my original comment:

sports!

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

the light bulb goes off in the heads of most triathletes, at some point in early in their careers, and they intuit, "if i start the race with frozen bottles, then 20 miles into the race..." unbound, maybe maybe not whether that was the theory put to practice. if you ride washboard with BTS then best ride with a Dawn to Dusk Kaptive 14.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Because my bike only has one bottle mount on the frame and I like to use my own liquid nutrition at races, and I don't want to be rolling the dice every race with a concentrated mix in a single bottle that can get screwed up and be the demise of my GI tract and race. I can't imagine

I'm a ~6:30 bike leg person for a full 140.6, what that means to achieve the above is that I need three to carry 60 ounces with me for each loop of the bike, with a stop at special needs to get a second set of pre-mixed stuff.

I actually hate how a bottle between the aerobars affects handling of the bike - there is so much weight on the front of a triathlon bike as it is. So I usually train and race with a bottle on my frame and two behind the seat.

BTA is one bottle. Where's your second? If I'm racing a short course, ok. But for long course I need the downtube aero for concentrated nutrition mix.

I can retrieve my BTS with the other arm still in the aerobars, and place it back within a few seconds on the bullhorns, I don't see much time loss there. But then again I have monkey arms. Finish the BTA, dump and/or swap, depending on the course and aid station placing. Where I race we need a litre on us between aid stations if you don't want to risk running out.

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ZONE3 - We Last Longer

BTA. BTA is the first and the second. it's 2 bottles in 1. at least, mine is.


bingo. that's what i've said pretty much throughout this thread, in a number of posts.

but i am totally cool with wherever you want to put your fluid on your bike. i'm only answering you because you directly asked me.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

This reminds me of the old joke. What's the difference between an ITT bike and a tri bike?

Tri bikes start off as ITT bikes and then triathletes mount three water bottles to it, flat kit, spare tubular, multitool, two power meters, two head units, GU gel taped to top tube, and that makes it a tri bike.

Hello Paul and All,

Water bottles are slow unless integrated into the bike to improve its aero shape or for control of boundry flow.

I tested a way to carry your liquids that is actually faster aero wise .. but of course the extra weight when filled makes you a bit slower up hil ... jus like a water bottle.

For increased speed you could fill the bladder with air ... and in fact as you use the liquids you should blow into to container it a bit ... so it maintains a full shape.

I have raceed in the past with this configuration and it works well.

If you measure the drag as I did in the San Diego Low Speed Wiind tunnel tests it will increase your speed over not haviing it present .... unless you have a particulaarly large gut.

Wear a chest mounted Camel Back or similar ... under your shirt if legal or outside if required. The additional weight is supported by your almost vertical upper arms and is not noticeable.

It improves your aero shape and makes you faster ... not slower. ... like a water bottle set up.

The ddrinking straw is right at your mouth ... zero drag ,,,, no hands required .... just like when you first found the nipple as a baby ....

One fill is adequate for a half and for a full you can refill at special needs or do a quick baldder swap.

No stopping at aid statiions.

Go faster ......

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

Not really any longer, for the expensive bikes at least. Two models, or totally different brand. Cervelo and Specialized come to mind. But a P5 and a P5x are not the same bike. Nor the two different Shiv bikes. The Trinity has a different stem/fork assembly to accommodate the hydration kit. Not even mentioning brands selling only tri bikes that in no way resemble a TT bike. For the base model stuff, sure, no difference really.

It's why I hear triathletes say "I'm getting a TT" bike. And I'm like......."no you're not, you're getting a triathlon bike".

I bet my friends would pay me to pose for race photos in an aero shape like this.

Thanks for the tip though. If anyone in my circles tries a contraption like that, it'll be me!

On second thought, I try to race triathlons. Sometimes I limp them, sometimes I race them. How many seconds do I have to make up in aero gains during my 40k bike for the time lost in T1 and later in T2 doing funny things with a Camelfront?

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

And position G *has* to be a joke, right?

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