Give out the prizes to the 'cheaters' and have a better policy for the next virtual event. If there were people who cheated, it's pretty unlikely they are going to comply with your requests for data/GPS so it'll be a headache for you to deal with.
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Re: race director question - how to call out a cheater in a virtual 5k charity run [Barry S.]
[ In reply to ]
Re: race director question - how to call out a cheater in a virtual 5k charity run [RandMart]
[ In reply to ]
RandMart wrote:
Grantbot21 wrote:
No one is going to get offended that can do a 16 min 5k if you ask them to show the file. I’m sure they get it. It’s a fast stand-alone time.They wouldn't even have to match the 16:05 they posted; something close would be enough to say "OK, I guess it's legit. Thanks for understanding"
On the other hand, the runner could also say "For $50? This is bullshit"
Remember, LetsRun offered Mike Rossi $100K if he could duplicate his 3:11 BQ, and he dodged them repeatedly. They even offered him $10K is he could break 20:00 for a 5K; which he tried to cheat them out of, but fucked that up
Yeah exactly. If you’re running 16 you can cruise an 18-19. Hell you probably have that time in the middle of a run the last few weeks. It’s going to be super obvious. Where someone who can’t is totally going to dodge or for that matter not understand what a 16 is and wonder why you don’t believe them.
Re: race director question - how to call out a cheater in a virtual 5k charity run [Barry S.]
[ In reply to ]
Having been a charity 5k RD for 12 years, pre-covid, I’d agree with the verification request for the top 10 or 15 places. In the email, I’d even suggest donating the gift card to the charity. In our events ($150 first place male, female and masters in both, $100 for 2nd and $50 for 3rd), when I did the awards and presentations afterwards I ALWAYS recommended donating back to the charity and even remind the university and high school kids that they really couldn’t accept the money anyway. Maybe the ones who accidentally entered the wrong times will say
, “hey, I see I made a mistake.” Or at least say “I’d like to denote my gift card.”
Not a coach. Not a FOP Tri/swimmer/biker/runner. Barely a MOP AGer.
But I'm learning and making progress.
, “hey, I see I made a mistake.” Or at least say “I’d like to denote my gift card.”
Not a coach. Not a FOP Tri/swimmer/biker/runner. Barely a MOP AGer.
But I'm learning and making progress.
Re: race director question - how to call out a cheater in a virtual 5k charity run [ajthomas]
[ In reply to ]
ajthomas wrote:
Barry S. wrote:
I work at a non-profit and we run a 5k race/walk every year. A tough run with some food after and everyone has a good time. Lots of corporation teams with overall individual and team awards given. There are gift certificates as prizes, but not cash. I think they're $50, $20, $10 for overall. Last year we had to go virtual and had racers submit results through a race company. There were no problems and ironically the winner was my son, so I know there was no cheating. Skip to this year, one person submitted a 16:05 5k time. I know this is doable for a very good runner. I can't find local results anywhere for this person and nothing on athlinks. It seems strange for someone to train that and never race? Another person has two times posted on athlinks of 45 and 35 min as a 60 year old. This year they posted a sub 20' time.
Is there a polite way or don't worry about polite and call their results into question? I know it's a charity run, but these two would take 1st and 3rd overall and we want to have some integrity in the results.
ANY suggestions would be most helpful.
Thank you
Barry
Is the window to race closed? Use this as a chance to market, baby! There are 20 people on this forum who can easily eclipse 16:05. Just get 3 of them to register and that wont matter.
Hell, I'll pay for the 3 STers who volunteer to do this.
For what it is worth, yeah, this isn't exactly "no good deed goes unpunished," but I hate that you have to deal with this.
Best suggestion on here! Did you notice?! Great idea and you continue to raise more money for the overall goal, and get legit results. Maybe ask Lionel and Jan and someone else to do it :)
Re: race director question - how to call out a cheater in a virtual 5k charity run [DoronG]
[ In reply to ]
DoronG wrote:
this is not the Olympics we are talking about. just let it go, not worth dealing with people that cheat on charity race
Where does it end. Too many people turning a blind eye to shit behaviour from people, not just cheating in a race, every aspect of life. But re racing, we had a guy who cheated for 3+ years in Australia, cutting the course for 70.3s and Ironman. Podiumed and went to the World Champs multiple times denying people their rightful WC spots. And he got away with it for so long, because people didn't pull him up on it, everyone just let him get away with it. It wasn't until the dumb arse fucked up and ended up with the fastest swim split of the day, beating most of the pros and getting an award that someone did something. He normally would swim a 35min 70.3 split and ended up with 22min. You see someone cheat, you pull them up on it and/or speak to the RD. It doesn't matter if it's the world champs or Park Run. Our common goal is we want people to not do shit stuff and if they do, they need to know there are consequences.
Re: race director question - how to call out a cheater in a virtual 5k charity run [zedzded]
[ In reply to ]
Agreed...cheating is a form of bullying...it is trying to get your way and what you want without doing the work and actually trying to be better than the other people. Bullies should not feel impowered to do more cheating, but they will as long as the good people keep turning a blind eye to their actions.
Re: race director question - how to call out a cheater in a virtual 5k charity run [zedzded]
[ In reply to ]
zedzded wrote:
DoronG wrote:
this is not the Olympics we are talking about. just let it go, not worth dealing with people that cheat on charity race
Where does it end. Too many people turning a blind eye to shit behaviour from people, not just cheating in a race, every aspect of life. But re racing, we had a guy who cheated for 3+ years in Australia, cutting the course for 70.3s and Ironman. Podiumed and went to the World Champs multiple times denying people their rightful WC spots. And he got away with it for so long, because people didn't pull him up on it, everyone just let him get away with it. It wasn't until the dumb arse fucked up and ended up with the fastest swim split of the day, beating most of the pros and getting an award that someone did something. He normally would swim a 35min 70.3 split and ended up with 22min. You see someone cheat, you pull them up on it and/or speak to the RD. It doesn't matter if it's the world champs or Park Run. Our common goal is we want people to not do shit stuff and if they do, they need to know there are consequences.
Those people suck. Not being a FOPer I am just racing for myself. I don't lie to myself that I am any faster than I actually I am it is not worth it.
I did the Laz's Virtual Race Across Tennessee where it was 5 months to complete 621 miles(1000km). People were doing 50 miles day in day out. I can't imagine that wasn't some step counter gone awry. My sister's fitbit gives her step count for bicycling. She doesn't run and the only weeks I ever beat her step count were weeks I ran a 50km race that week.
Basically people suck in general and if you let it bother you it makes your life worse. Ignore the morons.
[/url][/url]
Swim - Bike - Run the rest is just clothing changes.
Re: race director question - how to call out a cheater in a virtual 5k charity run [Barry S.]
[ In reply to ]
Barry S. wrote:
I work at a non-profit and we run a 5k race/walk every year. A tough run with some food after and everyone has a good time. Lots of corporation teams with overall individual and team awards given. There are gift certificates as prizes, but not cash. I think they're $50, $20, $10 for overall. Last year we had to go virtual and had racers submit results through a race company. There were no problems and ironically the winner was my son, so I know there was no cheating. Skip to this year, one person submitted a 16:05 5k time. I know this is doable for a very good runner. I can't find local results anywhere for this person and nothing on athlinks. It seems strange for someone to train that and never race? Another person has two times posted on athlinks of 45 and 35 min as a 60 year old. This year they posted a sub 20' time.
Is there a polite way or don't worry about polite and call their results into question? I know it's a charity run, but these two would take 1st and 3rd overall and we want to have some integrity in the results.
ANY suggestions would be most helpful.
Thank you
Barry
There is nothing wrong with verifying results.
I interview dishonest people for my job for fraud and theft. Ask an enticement question like- I noticed your run history doesn't match what you submitted. Would there be any reason you entered this by mistake? This let's them save face and provide an explanation.
OR- you can say something like- We've had a big issue with people falsifying times and receiving a financial benefit. I wanted to double check your results and get your input before I turned this over to a 3rd party to investigate. Are you able to provide proof or a garmin file that would match the results you submitted.
(sure it's $50 gc but what if someone is doing this all over the county.. It's fraud)
Feel free to DM me to walk you through. Remember, if you want to know if a person is lying, ask them!
USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach
Re: race director question - how to call out a cheater in a virtual 5k charity run [linhardt]
[ In reply to ]
linhardt wrote:
Basically people suck in general and if you let it bother you it makes your life worse. Ignore the morons.I don't know if I'd want to walk around with that attitude all day - it would tough for me
But you ARE right about ignoring morons
"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
Re: race director question - how to call out a cheater in a virtual 5k charity run [RandMart]
[ In reply to ]
RandMart wrote:
linhardt wrote:
Basically people suck in general and if you let it bother you it makes your life worse. Ignore the morons.I don't know if I'd want to walk around with that attitude all day - it would tough for me
But you ARE right about ignoring morons
I look at it a different way.
If you think people are good when they suck you are disappointed.
I think people suck and when they are good I am pleasantly surprised.
I bet you are disappointed frequently and if I get lucky I am bump up my happiness quotient.
Driving is a perfect example of people who suck 99.999% of the time.
Swim - Bike - Run the rest is just clothing changes.
Re: race director question - how to call out a cheater in a virtual 5k charity run [LEBoyd]
[ In reply to ]
LEBoyd wrote:
Having been a charity 5k RD for 12 years, pre-covid, I’d agree with the verification request for the top 10 or 15 places. In the email, I’d even suggest donating the gift card to the charity. In our events ($150 first place male, female and masters in both, $100 for 2nd and $50 for 3rd), when I did the awards and presentations afterwards I ALWAYS recommended donating back to the charity and even remind the university and high school kids that they really couldn’t accept the money anyway. ...”You put on a race, then publicly guilt the winners into donating their prize?? lol nice.
Re: race director question - how to call out a cheater in a virtual 5k charity run [SBRcanuck]
[ In reply to ]
SBRcanuck wrote:
LEBoyd wrote:
Having been a charity 5k RD for 12 years, pre-covid, I’d agree with the verification request for the top 10 or 15 places. In the email, I’d even suggest donating the gift card to the charity. In our events ($150 first place male, female and masters in both, $100 for 2nd and $50 for 3rd), when I did the awards and presentations afterwards I ALWAYS recommended donating back to the charity and even remind the university and high school kids that they really couldn’t accept the money anyway. ...”You put on a race, then publicly guilt the winners into donating their prize?? lol nice.
lol, that's what I thought too.
if the high school kids took the prize would he turn them in?
Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.
Last edited by:
pattersonpaul: Oct 17, 21 14:23
Re: race director question - how to call out a cheater in a virtual 5k charity run [linhardt]
[ In reply to ]
linhardt wrote:
zedzded wrote:
DoronG wrote:
this is not the Olympics we are talking about. just let it go, not worth dealing with people that cheat on charity race
Where does it end. Too many people turning a blind eye to shit behaviour from people, not just cheating in a race, every aspect of life. But re racing, we had a guy who cheated for 3+ years in Australia, cutting the course for 70.3s and Ironman. Podiumed and went to the World Champs multiple times denying people their rightful WC spots. And he got away with it for so long, because people didn't pull him up on it, everyone just let him get away with it. It wasn't until the dumb arse fucked up and ended up with the fastest swim split of the day, beating most of the pros and getting an award that someone did something. He normally would swim a 35min 70.3 split and ended up with 22min. You see someone cheat, you pull them up on it and/or speak to the RD. It doesn't matter if it's the world champs or Park Run. Our common goal is we want people to not do shit stuff and if they do, they need to know there are consequences.
Those people suck. Not being a FOPer I am just racing for myself. I don't lie to myself that I am any faster than I actually I am it is not worth it.
I did the Laz's Virtual Race Across Tennessee where it was 5 months to complete 621 miles(1000km). People were doing 50 miles day in day out. I can't imagine that wasn't some step counter gone awry. My sister's fitbit gives her step count for bicycling. She doesn't run and the only weeks I ever beat her step count were weeks I ran a 50km race that week.
Basically people suck in general and if you let it bother you it makes your life worse. Ignore the morons.
[/url][/url]
I have been very fortunate in life. Rarely have I experienced people who suck or morons. Maybe the next 60 years will be different but doubt it
Re: race director question - how to call out a cheater in a virtual 5k charity run [Barry S.]
[ In reply to ]
Barry S. wrote:
I work at a non-profit and we run a 5k race/walk every year. A tough run with some food after and everyone has a good time. Lots of corporation teams with overall individual and team awards given. There are gift certificates as prizes, but not cash. I think they're $50, $20, $10 for overall. Last year we had to go virtual and had racers submit results through a race company. There were no problems and ironically the winner was my son, so I know there was no cheating. Skip to this year, one person submitted a 16:05 5k time. I know this is doable for a very good runner. I can't find local results anywhere for this person and nothing on athlinks. It seems strange for someone to train that and never race? Another person has two times posted on athlinks of 45 and 35 min as a 60 year old. This year they posted a sub 20' time.
Is there a polite way or don't worry about polite and call their results into question? I know it's a charity run, but these two would take 1st and 3rd overall and we want to have some integrity in the results.
ANY suggestions would be most helpful.
Thank you
Barry
My previous post is still the best advice :)
I am surprised no one has suggested turning this over to that guy at marathoncheats.com or whatever that site is
Re: race director question - how to call out a cheater in a virtual 5k charity run [Barry S.]
[ In reply to ]
How do you call out a cheater... I wouldn't assume they're cheating but both are worthy of vetting out. Your 'winner' ran a good time for a 5K, ask for verfication since it is a VR. With a time like that they should be on milesplit or something... although I've seen good swimmers, basketball players, jump into tri/running/whatever and have naturally high VO2max/abilities. It's possible.
Your second place guy with a 15 minute PR from recorded races is probably a cheater or somehow sent 'bad data' and he'd probably just get a DQ. We both know that sort of time difference is a huge difference... a 35 minute 5K to a sub 20?
I work with a race company and my wife does timing. They deal with timing anomalies like this all the time and their answer is to deal with it directly as they go through results. If they have reasonable doubt they explore the times with various resources, directly with the athletes and review previous races.
Your second place guy with a 15 minute PR from recorded races is probably a cheater or somehow sent 'bad data' and he'd probably just get a DQ. We both know that sort of time difference is a huge difference... a 35 minute 5K to a sub 20?
I work with a race company and my wife does timing. They deal with timing anomalies like this all the time and their answer is to deal with it directly as they go through results. If they have reasonable doubt they explore the times with various resources, directly with the athletes and review previous races.
Re: race director question - how to call out a cheater in a virtual 5k charity run [TeamBarenaked]
[ In reply to ]
TeamBarenaked wrote:
I am surprised no one has suggested turning this over to that guy at marathoncheats.com or whatever that site ishttps://www.marathoninvestigation.com/
Without even going to Derek, I personally have gotten two bib-swappers DQ'd after photo evidence revealed they were too young [= fast] for the age group they claimed, and the person who accepted the award [and check] didn't match the person in the on-course photos
One guy claimed that he & his son got their bibs confused when they put them on that morning, but the RD didn't buy it
"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
Re: race director question - how to call out a cheater in a virtual 5k charity run [TeamBarenaked]
[ In reply to ]
I say just give them their Subway gift cards or Lululemon bags or whatever and move on. Maybe change it up next year so that you have to wear a FitBit to be eligible for prizes.
Definitely don’t turn them over to the Marathon Cheats guy. That dude is a bit unhinged. His schtick was fun at first, but once he elevated it to doxing and harassment that was too much for me.
Definitely don’t turn them over to the Marathon Cheats guy. That dude is a bit unhinged. His schtick was fun at first, but once he elevated it to doxing and harassment that was too much for me.
Re: race director question - how to call out a cheater in a virtual 5k charity run [Barry S.]
[ In reply to ]
I think it is worth just asking to verify results. I did a fun family 5k this summer with my father in law. I was impressed when the results came out and he took 2nd in his age group. He said it was too hot, so he ended up tuning around early (not at the 1/2 way point). He legitimately did not know this would be an issue at all or that he should let the race director know in any way. He had never done a 5k before and would tell you that his time (for his 5k…. Because close enough, he just turned around a little bit early because it was too hot) was something like a half hour- or an hour…..or so.
Re: race director question - how to call out a cheater in a virtual 5k charity run [RandMart]
[ In reply to ]
RandMart wrote:
TeamBarenaked wrote:
I am surprised no one has suggested turning this over to that guy at marathoncheats.com or whatever that site ishttps://www.marathoninvestigation.com/
Without even going to Derek, I personally have gotten two bib-swappers DQ'd after photo evidence revealed they were too young [= fast] for the age group they claimed, and the person who accepted the award [and check] didn't match the person in the on-course photos
One guy claimed that he & his son got their bibs confused when they put them on that morning, but the RD didn't buy it
Let's say this happens right...if you give your bib to a friend who wants to run...I'm totally cool with them running the marathon and then never going to any ceremonies for awards or telling anyone they did the race. Run and be silent.
ETA: But going out and bragging about winning is...well that's trashy.
Or someone figures out how to do a stubhub like platform for race entries.
Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
Last edited by:
TheStroBro: Oct 24, 21 11:18
Re: race director question - how to call out a cheater in a virtual 5k charity run [TheStroBro]
[ In reply to ]
Many races offer transfers, but if you miss out when the window closes, I've seen people go to the socials [FB/Twitter] with "ISO bib for XX Marathon" ... kinda like looking for concert tickets?
The one person I'm specifically thinking of, she's the kind of person who would say "You're running that one? I would love to go with you - let me see if I can get a bib" If she does get one, she'll take the chip out or deactivate it somehow, so she doesn't show up in the results
"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
The one person I'm specifically thinking of, she's the kind of person who would say "You're running that one? I would love to go with you - let me see if I can get a bib" If she does get one, she'll take the chip out or deactivate it somehow, so she doesn't show up in the results
"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
Re: race director question - how to call out a cheater in a virtual 5k charity run [Barry S.]
[ In reply to ]
thanks for all the great info. I wanted to follow up with the conclusion. Turning the Letsrun/Marathon cheats posse on them would have been fun, it wasn't worth the fallout.
The director decided to let the results stand. It's unfortunate we were put in this position, but that's something we probably should have been proactive about. Lesson learned. Hopefully, we won't have to do any more virtual races and we'll all be together live. The two individuals were from our largest corporate team and alienating them would cost us more in the long run. Not the outcome I had hoped for, but losing in the short term will pay off in the long term. At least, that's what my narco dealer brain thinks.
stay healthy out there
Barry
Great things never come from comfort zones.
The director decided to let the results stand. It's unfortunate we were put in this position, but that's something we probably should have been proactive about. Lesson learned. Hopefully, we won't have to do any more virtual races and we'll all be together live. The two individuals were from our largest corporate team and alienating them would cost us more in the long run. Not the outcome I had hoped for, but losing in the short term will pay off in the long term. At least, that's what my narco dealer brain thinks.
stay healthy out there
Barry
Great things never come from comfort zones.