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Re: Where does propulsive power come from in freestyle swimming? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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I do not think Dev is in any way implying that you need to do 40+ sessions a week. However, if you have a particular weakness, you are going to need to spend a lot of time attacking that weakness. It is very unlikely that three times per week will be enough to take you from inadequate to proficient in any of the three sports. If that is all you have time for, then spend it in a group with a good coach to maximize your potential.

As an example, I am a very poor runner. In order to have even a modest effect on my extraordinary lack of proficiency, I have found I need to do 6+ runs per week. With 6+ workouts per week, I have successfully progressed from "incredibly" poor to "kinda sucky." I would argue swimming is even more difficult.

I believe that it is generally accepted (on this forum anyway) that in order to be a FOP triathlete that you will have to ride and run more than three times per week. I am a bit confused that when that same focus is not given to the swim, that people are surprised by their lack of improvement.

There is no reason, however, that FOP needs to be the goal. We are all doing this for fun. Do what you enjoy and have time for. If that is swimming 2-3 times per week , so be it. If I had eight kids I know I wouldn't be able to do more than that.
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Re: Where does propulsive power come from in freestyle swimming? [Greatzaa] [ In reply to ]
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Wow....8 kids AND triathlon....give the guy the gold medal right there.

Yes, I was implying that to get good in a single sport you pretty well need to train that sport every day and do doubles most days, but you're not doing three sports.

Having said that, here was a sample day doing all three sports most days per week

bike commute to work 30 min, get off the bike, jog for 15 min, go to work, jog 10 min to pool and back, swim for 35 min hard, bike commute 45 min going with some hard intervals, 15 min easy jogging off bike

On the above day there is 1+ hrs of biking, 30-35 min of swim, and 50 min of running. Some days I would cut the runs down a bit or not add the transition runs, some days make the bike longer, some days, just skip the swim and just run continuously at lunch for 60 min....but basically give yourself the option IF YOU WANT to do all three sports on any given day in small dosage with the option of intensity while not taking up too much overhead five days per week. With this formula, 2 hrs per day just happens (of course you need to structure your life so you work close enough too home and you can ride there)....that is a priority to call

The idea is treat workout during the week as EXERCISE but do it frequently in short burst integrated into life.

This week I will run doubles 3x run commuting to the pool and swimming 45-60 min every day. I should end up with 8 swims and 10 runs and 2 rides (spin bike). The bike part is not enough for triathlon, but I'll get on the bike 7x per week program closer to race season, and cut running back to 5x per week and swim 6-7x (excessive for tri, but I hope to be doing a bunch of masters pool and open water racing)

On the weekend.....do real tri workouts (vs all this crazy lifestyle frequency exercise stuff)
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Re: Where does propulsive power come from in freestyle swimming? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Wow....8 kids AND triathlon....give the guy the gold medal right there.

Yes, I was implying that to get good in a single sport you pretty well need to train that sport every day and do doubles most days, but you're not doing three sports.

Having said that, here was a sample day doing all three sports most days per week

bike commute to work 30 min, get off the bike, jog for 15 min, go to work, jog 10 min to pool and back, swim for 35 min hard, bike commute 45 min going with some hard intervals, 15 min easy jogging off bike
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Yeah Dev,I was talking to someone the other day about the huge volumes of training I would do back in the 90's. Most of it was what would be called "unstructured" these days but man did I ever get fit.
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Things like in Penticton,getting up at 5:30am to run the 6k to the pool,do a 4k swim session and then run home.
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Putting my shoes in a backpack and riding backwards along the Ironman course to the S-Bends under Twin Lakes,do a bunch of S-Bend hill sreps and then ride on to the Yellow Lake climb.Hide the bike in the bushes and take my running shoes out of my backpack and run repeates of the last Yellow Lake climb.Ride home.

Every Canada Day we would ride to Peachland for the Canada Day 10k and ride back to Penticton afterwards.

Every August we would ride to Kelowna for the Across the Lake Swim (2k) and if we couldn't arrange a lift we would have to rode back.One year I rode to the start (about 65k) locked my bike at the swim finish,swam across the lake to the swim start,did the Across the Lake Swim and then rode back to Penticton.

My 5x week swim training in Oz at the time was trip to the pool with the girlfriend,do a 3k swim then a weights session with her in the pools gym.We would them go home and go to the beach across the road where I would ,for fun, do another hour or so of bodysurfing. So that may as well have been another swim workout.

Once a week was a 5hr ride ending at my job followed by a 1hr run before starting my shift running the Room Service Dept of the Park Royal in Surfers Paradise.After work ride 23k home.

Once a week I caught the bus to work and ran the 23k home.
All kinds of weird shit was done and not a coach was paid,not a Garmin in sight or Strava to prove myself to random stragers.
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Come to think of it,nothing has really changed..Except for the Garmins.
Last edited by: ThailandUltras: Dec 10, 20 15:20
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Re: Where does propulsive power come from in freestyle swimming? [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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I used to work 35 miles from my house, 30+ miles of it was via bike trail.

I would wake up at 4:00 AM, either swim, run, or do my prescribed intervals on the trainer, hop on the other bike and ride to work. Run at lunch. Ride home.

5+ hours of training on a Wednesday is insane. That lasted for a few weeks until I got a new job working 3 miles from the house. But damn, I miss it.

@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri
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Re: Where does propulsive power come from in freestyle swimming? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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samtridad wrote:
ericmulk wrote:


At my fitness club, the pool is divided into 3 lanes for free swim and 3 lanes for fitness swimming. You could take your whole fam there and let Mom oversee the kids while you swim. If you can get the lane right next to the free swim area, then you could even talk briefly w/ your kids while resting between intervals. At a minimum, you would be there in case Mom needed any help with an unruly or sick kid. This strategy might allow you to get more swim workouts in during the week. Further, do any of your kids swim on a team??? If so you could get your own circle swimming lane going. If none are on a team, why not?????? I don't want to see any posts from samtridad's son or daughter on ST 10-15 yrs from now complaining about how they can't swim well b/c they did not grow up swimming. :):):):)


Unfortunately, my wife HATES swimming and was grossed out by the idea of a public pool even before Covid. She thinks too much about pee in the water. Of my eight kids, the oldest six have all had swimming lessons and the option to join a team and not one has wanted to yet (and I am conflicted about "forcing" them). I have wrestlers, runners, snowboarders, skiers, soccer players and volleyball players, but no swimmers yet. My three year old (#7) flips out when he has to put his head in the water to wash his hair, so I don't see him becoming a swimmer. #8 is a little girl who (so far) loves the water, so maybe I will eventually have a little swim club kid...

OK then, here is another option. Again using my club as an example, they offer 2 hrs of child care either in the nursery for 5 and under kids, or in "Kid Fit" for 6-12 yr olds. The 13 and up kids can use the various machines, shoot basketball, and/or go to the pool. So, in theory, your whole fam could get 2 hrs in at the gym every day if you wanted to. Again this at my fitness center but just throwing this out there as an idea. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Where does propulsive power come from in freestyle swimming? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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90% + of my workouts during the week are commuting to and from work as well as running at night after work. That really sucks this time of year with sunset in the Bay Area before 5. Today, I did my first daytime run in awhile by going out during lunch and using wet wipes before my afternoon meetings. What works for me isn't going to be for everybody. You gotta do you. It's a big part of the challenge of this sport.
Last edited by: Greatzaa: Dec 10, 20 19:19
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Re: Where does propulsive power come from in freestyle swimming? [Greatzaa] [ In reply to ]
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Greatzaa wrote:
90% + of my workouts during the week are commuting to and from work as well as running at night after work. That really sucks this time of year with sunset in the Bar Area before 5. Today, I did my first daytime run in awhile by going out during lunch and using wet wipes before my afternoon meetings. What works for me isn't going to be for everybody. You gotta do you. It's a big part of the challenge of this sport.

Certainly everyone has to find a schedule that works for them. I'm just trying to give the OP a couple of options that some people use to get more training in. I don't even have any kids. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Where does propulsive power come from in freestyle swimming? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed. Trying to do the same. Not sure how to make it work with young kids. Definitely more complicated
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Re: Where does propulsive power come from in freestyle swimming? [Greatzaa] [ In reply to ]
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Greatzaa wrote:
90% + of my workouts during the week are commuting to and from work as well as running at night after work. That really sucks this time of year with sunset in the Bay Area before 5. Today, I did my first daytime run in awhile by going out during lunch and using wet wipes before my afternoon meetings. What works for me isn't going to be for everybody. You gotta do you. It's a big part of the challenge of this sport.


It's like a great time of year to commute by bike or run in the Bay Area! No summer heat to kill you anymore! You just needs really good reflectors, blinkies, and headlights, no reason you can't keep doing what you were doing before. I'm still doing a 1x/wk bike commute with a lunchtime run and will likely pump it up to 2x/wk soon.
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Re: Where does propulsive power come from in freestyle swimming? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
Greatzaa wrote:
90% + of my workouts during the week are commuting to and from work as well as running at night after work. That really sucks this time of year with sunset in the Bay Area before 5. Today, I did my first daytime run in awhile by going out during lunch and using wet wipes before my afternoon meetings. What works for me isn't going to be for everybody. You gotta do you. It's a big part of the challenge of this sport.


It's like a great time of year to commute by bike or run in the Bay Area! No summer heat to kill you anymore! You just needs really good reflectors, blinkies, and headlights, no reason you can't keep doing what you were doing before. I'm still doing a 1x/wk bike commute with a lunchtime run and will likely pump it up to 2x/wk soon.

"Summer heat" in the Bay area??? What, you consider 80 degrees hot??? What kind tri guy are you??? You'll never survive at Kona. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Where does propulsive power come from in freestyle swimming? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
lightheir wrote:
Greatzaa wrote:
90% + of my workouts during the week are commuting to and from work as well as running at night after work. That really sucks this time of year with sunset in the Bay Area before 5. Today, I did my first daytime run in awhile by going out during lunch and using wet wipes before my afternoon meetings. What works for me isn't going to be for everybody. You gotta do you. It's a big part of the challenge of this sport.


It's like a great time of year to commute by bike or run in the Bay Area! No summer heat to kill you anymore! You just needs really good reflectors, blinkies, and headlights, no reason you can't keep doing what you were doing before. I'm still doing a 1x/wk bike commute with a lunchtime run and will likely pump it up to 2x/wk soon.


"Summer heat" in the Bay area??? What, you consider 80 degrees hot??? What kind tri guy are you??? You'll never survive at Kona. :)


Hah - you have to do intervals at lunchtime with me in the summer. A few weeks this summer it was 90+, with full sun the whole way, so it was the equivalent of 95-100F. Doing z5 intervals really sucks then!

On my bike commutes home this summer, I think every single one was 85F+ at 5PM.

(Note San Francisco has a very different cold microclimate than the rest of Norcal, even just 10 minutes outside. SF will be like 65-70 in summer, and it'll be 90F just 12 minutes out)
Last edited by: lightheir: Dec 11, 20 9:04
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Re: Where does propulsive power come from in freestyle swimming? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
lightheir wrote:
Greatzaa wrote:
90% + of my workouts during the week are commuting to and from work as well as running at night after work. That really sucks this time of year with sunset in the Bay Area before 5. Today, I did my first daytime run in awhile by going out during lunch and using wet wipes before my afternoon meetings. What works for me isn't going to be for everybody. You gotta do you. It's a big part of the challenge of this sport.


It's like a great time of year to commute by bike or run in the Bay Area! No summer heat to kill you anymore! You just needs really good reflectors, blinkies, and headlights, no reason you can't keep doing what you were doing before. I'm still doing a 1x/wk bike commute with a lunchtime run and will likely pump it up to 2x/wk soon.


"Summer heat" in the Bay area??? What, you consider 80 degrees hot??? What kind tri guy are you??? You'll never survive at Kona. :)


Hah - you have to do intervals at lunchtime with me in the summer. A few weeks this summer it was 90+, with full sun the whole way, so it was the equivalent of 95-100F. Doing z5 intervals really sucks then!

On my bike commutes home this summer, I think every single one was 85F+ at 5PM.

(Note San Francisco has a very different cold microclimate than the rest of Norcal, even just 10 minutes outside. SF will be like 65-70 in summer, and it'll be 90F just 12 minutes out)

Ah, I see; I stand corrected then. I've always thought the whole "Bay Area" had a very moderate climate.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Where does propulsive power come from in freestyle swimming? [playguy] [ In reply to ]
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Sprints are 200 and down not 6 minutes or less. A 400 IM is not a sprint.

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Re: Where does propulsive power come from in freestyle swimming? [Greatzaa] [ In reply to ]
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Having listened to the advice on this thread, I have rejigged my training schedule this week. This morning I managed my fifth swim of the week - five consecutive days M-F and I know I have never done that before. I have brought my bike trainer to work so I can ride after work instead of in the early mornings (outdoors is not an option here in the winter), I can keep running at lunch time (I do that three or four days a week already). So mornings are all clear for swimming now! I'm going to stick with four or five swims per week through the winter (or until the pool shuts again...) and I'll see if I can make some progress. One thing to report after only one week: I feel so stretched out, limber and relaxed after swimming in the mornings, it would be worth doing just to start my day feeling that way.

Thanks again for the advice.
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Re: Where does propulsive power come from in freestyle swimming? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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Swimming is seriously my favorite way to start the day. If I didn't hate running and riding in the afternoon as much as I do, I'd swim more in the morning.

@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri
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Re: Where does propulsive power come from in freestyle swimming? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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samtridad wrote:
Having listened to the advice on this thread, I have rejigged my training schedule this week. This morning I managed my fifth swim of the week - five consecutive days M-F and I know I have never done that before. I have brought my bike trainer to work so I can ride after work instead of in the early mornings (outdoors is not an option here in the winter), I can keep running at lunch time (I do that three or four days a week already). So mornings are all clear for swimming now! I'm going to stick with four or five swims per week through the winter (or until the pool shuts again...) and I'll see if I can make some progress. One thing to report after only one week: I feel so stretched out, limber and relaxed after swimming in the mornings, it would be worth doing just to start my day feeling that way. Thanks again for the advice.

Sam - Congrats on figuring out a way to swim 4-5 days/wk!!! You're on your way buddy!!!


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Where does propulsive power come from in freestyle swimming? [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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That's pretty great. How are you coming up with the workouts? If you don't have a coach, I would suggest looking at some of the sets in the December Swim Challenge thread to give you some ideas.
Last edited by: Greatzaa: Dec 15, 20 19:17
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Re: Where does propulsive power come from in freestyle swimming? [Greatzaa] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, I'll take a look at that thread.
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