Do you have a basis for the differentiations in costs for different majors? The only difference I see in computer science vs literature is the professor salary and I would argue you can cram more students in a CS class at no less. For harder science and engineering labs then you can tack on a lab fee, the majority of college classes in those majors don’t utilize lab facilities. In the big schools labs are used for research, not undergrad education. I think the most expensive classes in terms of materials would be trades courses at the local community college.

No, I don't have a basis, but I'm sure one can be figured out...and wouldn't the market set that rate, based on those who argue for market driven pricing in higher education? I am a big fan of differentiated tuition, but I also bring it up because rarely do those who rail against the cost of education and the student loan program citing the example of a $100k for a philosophy major consider the degree of subsidization that those students are providing.

I think we are talking about two different types of labs, too. Yes, the big bucks at research driven institutions are invested in faculty laboratories. But labs exist for undergraduate education too and in sufficient numbers, and those cost money. Lab space alone is a huge driver of enrollment caps in programs. You can only fit so many students, safely in a lab. Engineering students may spend their entire last year enrolled in a design class and a considerable chunk of that time is spent in a lab. Where I work our engineering students have laboratory classes in their first year...my undergraduate degree is in political science. I took one lab my entire time and that was for a biology course. Many of our engineering students double that by the end of the first semester.

Matt

We don't want the universities deciding what degrees should be charged based on their notion of earnings potential.

If anything you'd want that to sit on the lending side of the equation, just like any loan.

But unless the lenders have normal risk, then they have no incentive to put degree employability and earning potential into their calculous.

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To be clear, I'm not suggesting that the cost of a degree be based on earning potential. I'm suggesting the cost of the degree be based on what is costs to educate the student. Administrators are already determining the price of earning a degree, and they are spreading that cost equally across all students. I'm suggesting that cost be adjusted based on what it costs to educate you.

Why should a sociology student subsidize a STEM student?

Matt

More lamentable is that we have universities teaching bullshit, if that is the case. All those STEM graduates can do meaningful things with their degrees but is there any deliberation in what should be done? Genetic engineering, where do we place the limits? It would seem the humanities are as needed as ever. My personal opinion is the humanities in universities are in a bad state but need reform not elimination.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Ok, fair. But I just don't see that as a major issue in the current system. Science and tech students already pay extra for lab fees and books etc. The main costs of professors, buildings, infrastructure, all other institutional variable costs are the same.

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We disagree on the point above. Professors, buildings, infrastructure, etc. are vastly different based on program/department.

Admittedly, the devil is in the details (and fundraising at large institutions definitely comes into play), but just consider what a "science building" would look like and cost compared to a building that will house the English Department et al.

And surely, the cost of higher education goes way beyond this one dead horse I am beating, but I find it frustrating when people pull out market conditions driving one aspect of education but are not willing to consider what a truly market driven system of higher education would look like and the ramifications.

Matt

I have legit quantitative degrees and a well paying job. My wife has a better paying job. We are top 10% earners.

I would be providing my children with a stay at home parent. A luxury not currently affordable to those with significant student loan debt.

Having a stay at home parent makes children more successful from childhood all the way through being adults. In return I would get student loan forgiveness. Seems like a win/win.

Yah, point taken on the lab infrastructure. Like you said devil's in the detail and how much of that is funded with grants or endowments.

Be also interesting to see if there is a difference in how many courses are taught by post grad teachers vs professors.

Anyway, I agree it's something to poke at, it's just waaaay down on the list of what is broken and needs fixed in the university system and costs.

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Did not read the article but did my own take on your comments.....ie if they have to graduate to get forgiveness, much better than just letting anyone go never mind if they get out. if it is just federally subsidized loans that get forgiven, then it is likely to only help those who truly need it. for example, my son, now a soph at a public university, is not offered any fed subsidized loans and his divorced parents, are not that well off esp considering fafsa only takes into account the parent(s) with which the child lives. so far he has not taken any loans, we covered first year and are then reducing out contribution by 20% per year. son has to cover the rest either by working(he does) or taking loans(may or may not), but none of those loans will be federally subsidized. next year, daughter will enter college and be given the same parental help(likely a non-public college which already help meet financial need, sort of) she is working now to save for it. even with 2 in school, i don't think we will qualify for fed loans for the kids. for perspective, i was able to get the full amount of the college tax credit for my contribution to my son's education last year and it will be partial this year. so i could be onboard with fed loan forgiveness, assuming they graduate in a fixed number of years. i consider myself middle of the road in politics and depending on the circumstances vote either way. i have no party allegiance

Reading this I had to look back. My alma mater's yearly cost for Tuition + R/B is $71k. Median income for graduate's is $55k. That is insane. I have no idea how they justify that cost. It was a good liberal arts school with a strong sciences dept, which is what I wanted.

Regardless, it is still now $70+k/year for a Bachelor of Arts. Unreal. It needs to stop.

This, for sure. I have no problem with the idea of government subsidizing education. It benefits us all to have an educated citizenry. However, if someone is going to school to be a social worker, we can’t lend them the same amount of money as we would lend to someone going to school to be an engineer or a doctor. It’s not because social work is a bad profession, but because a social worker will not likely make the same money as an engineer or doctor, and will be unable to pay back their loans.

As long as we’re willing to give anyone basically whatever the schools will charge, the schools will keep charging more and more. It’s a criminal mismanagement of taxpayer dollars.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

If you would pay $70k to make 55k/ year, you are probably too stupid to be given a loan. Also you are too stupid to go to college. Ultimately, though I don't blame the college, I blame the students and their parents who would go there. You have to do the math. And you need to be held responsible for poor decisions. Student loans for those who pay that should not be forgiven!!! and taxpayers should not provide free education (College tuition) if the ROI is upside down as in this situation. Sure some of those students will eventually be very successful, but if they are going to be that successful, then let them pay their debt. O.k., rant off.

Although its kind of funny that amidst Covid and this thread, I should mention Fauci also attended the same school and graduated as a Classics major.

I see nothing wrong with a liberal arts degree. I definitely see the value in the education I received. Yet I also had a a plan and knew I would be pursuing something in healthcare. The problem is when, as you say, those pursuing one career vs another will have vastly different outcomes and opportunities to afford said opportunities.

I will assume that it was for a private school, not public and all the private schools I have seen(daughter's aps) meet 100% financial need. So some folks may pay the full amount, but those families are fairly high up the income ladder. public school tuition, in-state, is much lower. if someone wants to send their kid to a 70k/yr school and they have the means, its just like buying themselves a luxury car.

Correct, it was Holy Cross up in central Mass. I know grants do not usually have to be paid back but financial aid is still comprised of federal loans as well. From what I read something like 50% of graduates took out loans.

I really wish I knew more at 18 going into undergrad. My father and sister also went to HC. In fact, my parents paid for 8 years of back to back tuition at HC which was a herculean task. My god how fortunate we were to have that opportunity. We never discussed finances with our parents, but now that we know more, I know what sacrifice it was to them to make that happen and if I could snap my fingers and do it all over I would have chosen a scholarship at a different school. I was pretty good at soccer (not amazing), enough to play small D1 but the Patriot League didn't offer scholarships. I loved the school, the "pre-med" program, and my father is a passionate man who had a lot of school spirit. So I went, and chose that school and was none the wiser. They would let us go anywhere we wanted, and never once pushed the purple on us. But they loved that we went there and so we didn't think anything of the cost. Ignorance is fucking bliss.

My father was a private practice ortho in a small-ish town. We were fortunate growing up but not like we had a mansion or had sports cars in the driveway. In fact my father was on call at 4 different hospitals in any given week and worked his ass off. So to look back and see that my parents must have spent close to half a million dollars on the two of us for a fucking degree is gut wrenching. When I think about it I feel somewhat ashamed that they could be in a completely different financial/working situation, but I know they don't regret sending us at all. Yet I still wish I knew more, so much more back then. Everything they were willing to do for us makes me wish I had done that one thing for them.

Rising tuitions are out of control. It needs to be curbed and the only other thing I could hope for is that it no longer becomes taboo to forego college or the college experience. Sigh..