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Re: >120 g/hr carbohydrate realistic? Discussion on MAX carb consumption rates during exercise. [fruit thief] [ In reply to ]
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fruit thief wrote:
Interesting discussion. To me it looks like there is maybe a fairly narrow range here.


I'm guessing Duncan74 means 90g per hour. For him that's about 1g per kg per hour on the bike.

DrAlexHarrison, bigger guy, 100+g per hour, also about 1g per kg per hour over a long ride. Not sure how valid rates for short rides are- for example, someone could ride for 5 minutes, drink a glass of orange juice, and claim 1000g per hour.

Me, smaller, 60g per hour on the bike is about what I can handle , also about 1g per kg per hour. On the run I often struggle to take anything though.

Gut tolerances are surprisingly unrelated to body mass. My wife routinely intakes 120g carbs per hour for 2-4-hour efforts on the bike if sufficiently hydrated. She's 5'9", 63kg. I have a couple clients in the 55kg range that regularly do >100g/hr.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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Re: >120 g/hr carbohydrate realistic? Discussion on MAX carb consumption rates during exercise. [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:
I’ve consumed 500kcal/hr before, so 1.6g/kg/hr of carbohydrate. Takes training and also good pacing.

Good pacing is a great point.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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Re: >120 g/hr carbohydrate realistic? Discussion on MAX carb consumption rates during exercise. [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:

You’re dehydrated

OK, I'm always keen to learn, but in order to do that, I'll probably need a bit more around how/why you think that and how we can confirm your hypothesis. I have been dehydrated in races, and on rides and with clear symptoms of that. So I'd be a bit surprised if this was dehydration as to me then these things came up when I'd drunk a lot more, was in cooler conditions and also without the same symptoms. Also, and I appreciate this isn't the clearest indication, weight at the end of the race wasn't substantially lower than pre-race, and was heavier than in many training ride / runs, albeit noting that my training runs tend to max out at 33km (2 1/2 hr).

If it is dehydration can you be specific where - on the bike or in the run. Ie is the issue I'm starting the run dehydrated, or is it that the bike is fine, but I'm dehydrating over that first couple of hours on the run which is why I'm not having issues in 70.3 as whilst I am runnign a fluid deficit I'm not running long enough for it to become an issue.
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Re: >120 g/hr carbohydrate realistic? Discussion on MAX carb consumption rates during exercise. [Duncan74] [ In reply to ]
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Duncan74 wrote:
ericMPro wrote:


You’re dehydrated


OK, I'm always keen to learn, but in order to do that, I'll probably need a bit more around how/why you think that and how we can confirm your hypothesis. I have been dehydrated in races, and on rides and with clear symptoms of that. So I'd be a bit surprised if this was dehydration as to me then these things came up when I'd drunk a lot more, was in cooler conditions and also without the same symptoms. Also, and I appreciate this isn't the clearest indication, weight at the end of the race wasn't substantially lower than pre-race, and was heavier than in many training ride / runs, albeit noting that my training runs tend to max out at 33km (2 1/2 hr).

If it is dehydration can you be specific where - on the bike or in the run. Ie is the issue I'm starting the run dehydrated, or is it that the bike is fine, but I'm dehydrating over that first couple of hours on the run which is why I'm not having issues in 70.3 as whilst I am running a fluid deficit I'm not running long enough for it to become an issue.

you need to reconsider what your definition of "hydrated" is...

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Re: >120 g/hr carbohydrate realistic? Discussion on MAX carb consumption rates during exercise. [Duncan74] [ In reply to ]
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have you done a sweat test, or even weighed yourself after those big IM training rides? you said weight wasn't a problem but are you talking about your weight on race day, or weight loss?

Also, when you are taking your ambient weather data into account, are you looking at relative humidity or dew point?

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning
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Re: >120 g/hr carbohydrate realistic? Discussion on MAX carb consumption rates during exercise. [Callin'] [ In reply to ]
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Callin' wrote:
have you done a sweat test, or even weighed yourself after those big IM training rides? you said weight wasn't a problem but are you talking about your weight on race day, or weight loss?

Also, when you are taking your ambient weather data into account, are you looking at relative humidity or dew point?
Sweat test - no
Weighed pre / post workouts and races. Yes, pre/ post every session, AM and PM every day for the purpose of being aware of hydration state.
And weight to inform weight loss. IMNZ they weigh you at registration and on the finish line. Before you are allowed into the finishers tent they weigh you on the exact same scale you used at registration to calculate weight loss and they direct you to either recovery tent or medical.
In training if I finish at home I weigh before and fluid in/out, if I'm finishing away then I take into account the volume/weight of fluid in my understanding of fluid loss.
Mostly temp, and RH, but for me in the locations I train/race then wind speed and sun intensity are big factors.
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Re: >120 g/hr carbohydrate realistic? Discussion on MAX carb consumption rates during exercise. [Duncan74] [ In reply to ]
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Duncan74 wrote:
ericMPro wrote:


You’re dehydrated


OK, I'm always keen to learn, but in order to do that, I'll probably need a bit more around how/why you think that and how we can confirm your hypothesis. I have been dehydrated in races, and on rides and with clear symptoms of that. So I'd be a bit surprised if this was dehydration as to me then these things came up when I'd drunk a lot more, was in cooler conditions and also without the same symptoms. Also, and I appreciate this isn't the clearest indication, weight at the end of the race wasn't substantially lower than pre-race, and was heavier than in many training ride / runs, albeit noting that my training runs tend to max out at 33km (2 1/2 hr).

If it is dehydration can you be specific where - on the bike or in the run. Ie is the issue I'm starting the run dehydrated, or is it that the bike is fine, but I'm dehydrating over that first couple of hours on the run which is why I'm not having issues in 70.3 as whilst I am runnign a fluid deficit I'm not running long enough for it to become an issue.

Gut sensitivity tends to be higher during running.

Gut sensitivity tends to be higher during higher intensity activity.

Gut sensitivity tends to be higher when dehydrated, even mildly. (~1% body weight loss, and dramatically beyond β‰₯2% body weight lost).

If sodium isn't matching fluid consumption at close to 1000mg/L (some folks benefit from 1200-1800mg/L), it could be leading to clinically irrelevant, but performance-relevant hyponatremia, meaning your blood volume is dropping JUST like if you were dehydrated. In hyponatremia blood volume drops as water moves into cells and out of blood, to ensure blood sodium concentration (among other concentrations) is maintained for life. One symptom of your body not getting enough sodium with the fluid intake is peeing. Drink a bunch of water absent sodium and you'll pee when you'd rather hold the fluid for performance reasons (cardiac output).

I looked up the Nuun sodium amounts. Looks like 600mg per liter. Looks like you're getting 420mg sodium from Nuun per 700mL of fluid intake. I'd say double your sodium intake. Maybe triple it.

Sodium Citrate is my go-to. No affiliation. Just cheap.

Switching gears, it could entirely be due to the sugar composition of your beverages. If pushing greater than 60g carbs per hour, it's probably ideal for glucose:fructose ratio to be closer to 1:1, rather than 2:1.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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πŸ“± Check out our app β†’ Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
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Re: >120 g/hr carbohydrate realistic? Discussion on MAX carb consumption rates during exercise. [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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These are two graphs from a performance diagnostics (spirometry): the left from a beginner, the right from a trained person.
The yellow curve is indicative for fat burning, the blue for carbohydrate burning.
At such a performance diagnostic, you push harder in time, e.g. in 3 minutes intervals.

As you see, at a certain intensity you do not burn any fat anymore, but only carbohydrates.

So I would not subscribe your assumption that "you're never not burning fat". Unless me, or the people who make them, do not interpret those graphs the proper way.



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Re: >120 g/hr carbohydrate realistic? Discussion on MAX carb consumption rates during exercise. [longtrousers] [ In reply to ]
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longtrousers wrote:
These are two graphs from a performance diagnostics (spirometry): the left from a beginner, the right from a trained person.
The yellow curve is indicative for fat burning, the blue for carbohydrate burning.

Any chance you can zoom in on each graph and repost for a clearer picture and discussion?

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
πŸ“± Check out our app β†’ Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube β†’ Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
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Re: >120 g/hr carbohydrate realistic? Discussion on MAX carb consumption rates during exercise. [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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DrAlexHarrison wrote:
longtrousers wrote:
These are two graphs from a performance diagnostics (spirometry): the left from a beginner, the right from a trained person.
The yellow curve is indicative for fat burning, the blue for carbohydrate burning.


Any chance you can zoom in on each graph and repost for a clearer picture and discussion?


I posted these graphs just to show my understanding that any spirometry shows that fat burning goes to null at a certain intensity. So it is not important for that to know the exact values in those graphs. These graphs show the different gasses you exhale which should be indicative to fat burning and carbohydrate burning. I'm far from being an expert and maybe eircMPro is right that you indeed always burn at least some fat, it only surprised me because I had an other understanding.
Last edited by: longtrousers: Nov 14, 20 14:59
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Re: >120 g/hr carbohydrate realistic? Discussion on MAX carb consumption rates during exercise. [longtrousers] [ In reply to ]
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longtrousers wrote:
DrAlexHarrison wrote:
longtrousers wrote:
These are two graphs from a performance diagnostics (spirometry): the left from a beginner, the right from a trained person.
The yellow curve is indicative for fat burning, the blue for carbohydrate burning.


Any chance you can zoom in on each graph and repost for a clearer picture and discussion?


I posted these graphs just to show my understanding that any spirometry shows that fat burning goes to null at a certain intensity. So it is not important for that to know the exact values in those graphs. These graphs show the different gasses you exhale which should be indicative to fat burning and carbohydrate burning. I'm far from being an expert and maybe eircMPro is right that you indeed always burn at least some fat, it only surprised me because I had an other understanding.

You are burning fat from the time you are born until the time you die and every nanosecond in between.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

β€œYou are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: >120 g/hr carbohydrate realistic? Discussion on MAX carb consumption rates during exercise. [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:
longtrousers wrote:
DrAlexHarrison wrote:
longtrousers wrote:
These are two graphs from a performance diagnostics (spirometry): the left from a beginner, the right from a trained person.
The yellow curve is indicative for fat burning, the blue for carbohydrate burning.


Any chance you can zoom in on each graph and repost for a clearer picture and discussion?


I posted these graphs just to show my understanding that any spirometry shows that fat burning goes to null at a certain intensity. So it is not important for that to know the exact values in those graphs. These graphs show the different gasses you exhale which should be indicative to fat burning and carbohydrate burning. I'm far from being an expert and maybe eircMPro is right that you indeed always burn at least some fat, it only surprised me because I had an other understanding.


You are burning fat from the time you are born until the time you die and every nanosecond in between.

Here is another illustration of what I mean:


https://iconoclasses.com/...-maximal-effort-rer/

At the moment the respiratory quotient (RQ) = 1, there is no fat burning anymore, I quote from the beginning of that article:
"
A ratio of 0.7 is indicative of mixed fat use, whereas a ratio of 1.0 indicates the exclusive use of carbohydrates. Thus, during low- intensity, steady-state exercise, the respiratory quotient and the RER are typically between 0.80 and 0.88, when fatty acids are the primary fuel. As the intensity of the exercise increases and carbohydrates become the dominant or primary fuel, the respiratory quotient and the RER increase to between 0.9 and 1.0."
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Re: >120 g/hr carbohydrate realistic? Discussion on MAX carb consumption rates during exercise. [longtrousers] [ In reply to ]
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longtrousers wrote:
ericMPro wrote:
longtrousers wrote:
DrAlexHarrison wrote:
longtrousers wrote:
These are two graphs from a performance diagnostics (spirometry): the left from a beginner, the right from a trained person.
The yellow curve is indicative for fat burning, the blue for carbohydrate burning.


Any chance you can zoom in on each graph and repost for a clearer picture and discussion?


I posted these graphs just to show my understanding that any spirometry shows that fat burning goes to null at a certain intensity. So it is not important for that to know the exact values in those graphs. These graphs show the different gasses you exhale which should be indicative to fat burning and carbohydrate burning. I'm far from being an expert and maybe eircMPro is right that you indeed always burn at least some fat, it only surprised me because I had an other understanding.


You are burning fat from the time you are born until the time you die and every nanosecond in between.


Here is another illustration of what I mean:

https://iconoclasses.com/...-maximal-effort-rer/

At the moment the respiratory quotient (RQ) = 1, there is no fat burning anymore, I quote from the beginning of that article:
"
A ratio of 0.7 is indicative of mixed fat use, whereas a ratio of 1.0 indicates the exclusive use of carbohydrates. Thus, during low- intensity, steady-state exercise, the respiratory quotient and the RER are typically between 0.80 and 0.88, when fatty acids are the primary fuel. As the intensity of the exercise increases and carbohydrates become the dominant or primary fuel, the respiratory quotient and the RER increase to between 0.9 and 1.0."

RQ's in excess of 1.0 are possible during higher intensity exercise. 1.1 and 1.15 are commonly observed during VO2max ramp tests, and occasionally as high as 1.20. This onset of acid production and the resultant increased expiration of CO2 occurs before RQ=1.0, meaning that fat oxidation is still likely at RQ=1.0.

Tissue level acid (hydrogen ions) production increases as RQ approaches 1.0, and this increased acidity causes a shift in the bicarb buffering system, resulting more CO2 being breathed off, relative to actual carb use, before RQ=1.0 in a ramp test.

Therefore, RQ=1.0 likely indicates largely carb use, acid balance via respiratory system, and some lower-level fat use.

The "RQ=1.0 = exclusive carb use" is commonly taught in undergrad ex phys, and undergrad exercise physiology textbooks often contradict themselves (as is pictured here in Powers and Howley) in their pursuit of simplicity for the newer undergrad learners. I suspect that the "RQ=1.0 = exclusively carbs" argument is an oversimplification used to teach the concept of substrate utilization to undergraduate students in exercise physiology courses.

Completely shutting off the cellular machinery for fat burning in all tissues seems implausible and improbable. Reduced, yes, at highest intensities, and to the greatest extent in lesser-trained folks. (The bar graph image is a completely untrained subject with LT β‰… 60% of VO2max).

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
πŸ“± Check out our app β†’ Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube β†’ Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
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Re: >120 g/hr carbohydrate realistic? Discussion on MAX carb consumption rates during exercise. [longtrousers] [ In reply to ]
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With thanks to Powers and Howley, Exercise Physiology, Theory and Application to Fitness and Performance, 8th ed.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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Re: >120 g/hr carbohydrate realistic? Discussion on MAX carb consumption rates during exercise. [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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DrAlexHarrison wrote:
longtrousers wrote:
ericMPro wrote:
longtrousers wrote:
DrAlexHarrison wrote:
longtrousers wrote:
These are two graphs from a performance diagnostics (spirometry): the left from a beginner, the right from a trained person.
The yellow curve is indicative for fat burning, the blue for carbohydrate burning.


Any chance you can zoom in on each graph and repost for a clearer picture and discussion?


I posted these graphs just to show my understanding that any spirometry shows that fat burning goes to null at a certain intensity. So it is not important for that to know the exact values in those graphs. These graphs show the different gasses you exhale which should be indicative to fat burning and carbohydrate burning. I'm far from being an expert and maybe eircMPro is right that you indeed always burn at least some fat, it only surprised me because I had an other understanding.


You are burning fat from the time you are born until the time you die and every nanosecond in between.


Here is another illustration of what I mean:

https://iconoclasses.com/...-maximal-effort-rer/

At the moment the respiratory quotient (RQ) = 1, there is no fat burning anymore, I quote from the beginning of that article:
"
A ratio of 0.7 is indicative of mixed fat use, whereas a ratio of 1.0 indicates the exclusive use of carbohydrates. Thus, during low- intensity, steady-state exercise, the respiratory quotient and the RER are typically between 0.80 and 0.88, when fatty acids are the primary fuel. As the intensity of the exercise increases and carbohydrates become the dominant or primary fuel, the respiratory quotient and the RER increase to between 0.9 and 1.0."


RQ's in excess of 1.0 are possible during higher intensity exercise. 1.1 and 1.15 are commonly observed during VO2max ramp tests, and occasionally as high as 1.20. This onset of acid production and the resultant increased expiration of CO2 occurs before RQ=1.0, meaning that fat oxidation is still likely at RQ=1.0.

Tissue level acid (hydrogen ions) production increases as RQ approaches 1.0, and this increased acidity causes a shift in the bicarb buffering system, resulting more CO2 being breathed off, relative to actual carb use, before RQ=1.0 in a ramp test.

Therefore, RQ=1.0 likely indicates largely carb use, acid balance via respiratory system, and some lower-level fat use.

The "RQ=1.0 = exclusive carb use" is commonly taught in undergrad ex phys, and undergrad exercise physiology textbooks often contradict themselves (as is pictured here in Powers and Howley) in their pursuit of simplicity for the newer undergrad learners. I suspect that the "RQ=1.0 = exclusively carbs" argument is an oversimplification used to teach the concept of substrate utilization to undergraduate students in exercise physiology courses.

Completely shutting off the cellular machinery for fat burning in all tissues seems implausible and improbable. Reduced, yes, at highest intensities, and to the greatest extent in lesser-trained folks. (The bar graph image is a completely untrained subject with LT β‰… 60% of VO2max).

Thank you for the extensive explanations.

Maybe we can agree on the following then:

"Fat use divided by carbohydrate use decreases with increased intensity but never goes to null because there always remains a certain minimum amount of fat use".
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Re: >120 g/hr carbohydrate realistic? Discussion on MAX carb consumption rates during exercise. [longtrousers] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
longtrousers wrote:
DrAlexHarrison wrote:
longtrousers wrote:
ericMPro wrote:
longtrousers wrote:
DrAlexHarrison wrote:
longtrousers wrote:
These are two graphs from a performance diagnostics (spirometry): the left from a beginner, the right from a trained person.
The yellow curve is indicative for fat burning, the blue for carbohydrate burning.


Any chance you can zoom in on each graph and repost for a clearer picture and discussion?


I posted these graphs just to show my understanding that any spirometry shows that fat burning goes to null at a certain intensity. So it is not important for that to know the exact values in those graphs. These graphs show the different gasses you exhale which should be indicative to fat burning and carbohydrate burning. I'm far from being an expert and maybe eircMPro is right that you indeed always burn at least some fat, it only surprised me because I had an other understanding.


You are burning fat from the time you are born until the time you die and every nanosecond in between.


Here is another illustration of what I mean:

https://iconoclasses.com/...-maximal-effort-rer/

At the moment the respiratory quotient (RQ) = 1, there is no fat burning anymore, I quote from the beginning of that article:
"
A ratio of 0.7 is indicative of mixed fat use, whereas a ratio of 1.0 indicates the exclusive use of carbohydrates. Thus, during low- intensity, steady-state exercise, the respiratory quotient and the RER are typically between 0.80 and 0.88, when fatty acids are the primary fuel. As the intensity of the exercise increases and carbohydrates become the dominant or primary fuel, the respiratory quotient and the RER increase to between 0.9 and 1.0."


RQ's in excess of 1.0 are possible during higher intensity exercise. 1.1 and 1.15 are commonly observed during VO2max ramp tests, and occasionally as high as 1.20. This onset of acid production and the resultant increased expiration of CO2 occurs before RQ=1.0, meaning that fat oxidation is still likely at RQ=1.0.

Tissue level acid (hydrogen ions) production increases as RQ approaches 1.0, and this increased acidity causes a shift in the bicarb buffering system, resulting more CO2 being breathed off, relative to actual carb use, before RQ=1.0 in a ramp test.

Therefore, RQ=1.0 likely indicates largely carb use, acid balance via respiratory system, and some lower-level fat use.

The "RQ=1.0 = exclusive carb use" is commonly taught in undergrad ex phys, and undergrad exercise physiology textbooks often contradict themselves (as is pictured here in Powers and Howley) in their pursuit of simplicity for the newer undergrad learners. I suspect that the "RQ=1.0 = exclusively carbs" argument is an oversimplification used to teach the concept of substrate utilization to undergraduate students in exercise physiology courses.

Completely shutting off the cellular machinery for fat burning in all tissues seems implausible and improbable. Reduced, yes, at highest intensities, and to the greatest extent in lesser-trained folks. (The bar graph image is a completely untrained subject with LT β‰… 60% of VO2max).


Thank you for the extensive explanations.

Maybe we can agree on the following then:

"Fat use divided by carbohydrate use decreases with increased intensity but never goes to null because there always remains a certain minimum amount of fat use".

Agreed!

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
πŸ“± Check out our app β†’ Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube β†’ Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
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