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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom, you guys are saying its easy to remove heat for the protour guys. OK that is theoretically fine. I gave you the rough math on how much heat they generate and most of them probably don't even know the amount they are generating, because usually they don't do all this trainer time like age groupers and when they do, their heat generation is way harder.


Protour guys may or may not have done that in the lockdown and thereby diminished their training even for the volume they did (remember Geriant Thomas's trainer charity rides that we were super long....and he sucked at Dauphine):

https://www.cyclingnews.com/...on-the-home-trainer/


This is when he did 36 hrs of trainer riding in 3 days.


Anyway, its not a perfect world to go acquire simple things during lockdown and get it installed depending on where they are, and modify their set ups at home. They are not age groupers in North American with lots of space and personal studios.

Just because Jordan has a set up (and OK he tells us he is almost protour level, fair enough), does not mean the other guys who were non performing early after the lockdown did.
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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A simpler explanation is that 3 x 12 hour days on the bike was really hard on his body, and I’m not sure what else he was doing, but if he was doing any kind of build to that, then yeah, that’s not what most would consider to be good race prep.

Heat management is important, but it’s far from the only thing that’s critical in bike racing.

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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Just a general reply.
When GT did that it was super easy, like 2 to 2.5 wkg, that is probably why he needed a bag of peas down there, all saddle support.
There is no way that was useful training for him.

Tiago
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some answers) [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]
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Titanflexr wrote:
MattyK wrote:
Matthew Hayman: coughs.


Sanders


Sanders couldn't change Haymans' tires.

***
Last edited by: M----n: Sep 16, 20 18:06
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Tom, you guys are saying its easy to remove heat for the protour guys. OK that is theoretically fine. I gave you the rough math on how much heat they generate and most of them probably don't even know the amount they are generating, because usually they don't do all this trainer time like age groupers and when they do, their heat generation is way harder.


Protour guys may or may not have done that in the lockdown and thereby diminished their training even for the volume they did (remember Geriant Thomas's trainer charity rides that we were super long....and he sucked at Dauphine):

https://www.cyclingnews.com/...on-the-home-trainer/


This is when he did 36 hrs of trainer riding in 3 days.


Anyway, its not a perfect world to go acquire simple things during lockdown and get it installed depending on where they are, and modify their set ups at home. They are not age groupers in North American with lots of space and personal studios.

Just because Jordan has a set up (and OK he tells us he is almost protour level, fair enough), does not mean the other guys who were non performing early after the lockdown did.

Richie Porte was doing some big hours on the trainer earlier in the year from March through until around May when he was on lockdown and he seems to be having one of his best tours ever.
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [TruffleShuffle] [ In reply to ]
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I would like to agree with you but after 90min of riding indoors with a very good fan (Wahoo version), the room I train in goes from 74f to 83-85f over the duration. Not only am I dripping with sweat the room feels like I am leaving a sauna when I walk out. Outside, the wind on our skin may be lower, but the environment is not heating up due to the heat we are creating. I can't imagine how warm it would be if I was cranking 400+ watts for extended periods indoors.



"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [CPT Chaos] [ In reply to ]
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CPT Chaos wrote:
I would like to agree with you but after 90min of riding indoors with a very good fan (Wahoo version), the room I train in goes from 74f to 83-85f over the duration. Not only am I dripping with sweat the room feels like I am leaving a sauna when I walk out. Outside, the wind on our skin may be lower, but the environment is not heating up due to the heat we are creating. I can't imagine how warm it would be if I was cranking 400+ watts for extended periods indoors.

When you're riding outside, the environment is absolutely heating up from the heat you are generating, it's just that amount of heat you generate is very small compared to the size of the environment.

If your trainer room is heating up that much, you have a size and/or ventilation problem. If you're riding in a closet, of course it's going to be hot and humid, but if you're riding in a large, well ventilated room you probably won't raise the temp and humidity much.

Remember that your fan doesn't take heat out of the air, in fact it adds heat to the air. Unless you're bringing in outside air, or using something like AC, the heat is going up, no matter how many fans you have blowing on your face.

On the other hand, for most of my indoor training I could just crack open the window and the room temp would drop, no matter how many watts I was pushing. :)

Look at computer data centers. A full UCS blade chassis outputs around 4000 Watts and yet they stay cool. I've seen $400 AC unit keep a closet with 5 servers in it at 65F, there is zero chance that you can't design a trainer room that would let a pro cyclist ride at full output for hours and stay cool. The question is only if you want to, or are willing to.
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [bufordt] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think it's as much about whether you heat the room up as some are suggesting. I keep my trainer in a two car garage, half of which is my gym. I will dump sweat and wildly overheat even if it's 30F outside without fans. Your body throws off a ton of heat and needs moving air to keep up with that heating and cool down. Even if you're not heating the room that much, you're still generating and surrounded by a ton of heat. One would be more comfortable in an 80 degree room with full body fans than a 60 degree room without moving air.

Your whole body is moving through air outside which has a far larger effect than a single AC unit or fan can have. I currently use three air mover type fans, and have them on a remote switch. Clicking them on dramatically reduces RPE on anything above 85%ish of threshold.

I used a single fan for a long time before beginning to add fans, there was an immediate improvement to indoor power, which had always been below what I could do outside.

It's pretty easy for me to imagine a learning curve on cooling for pros who've just never spent that much time indoors.
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [Geronimo] [ In reply to ]
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I agree, a fan will make riding on the trainer more comfortable.

I was responding to someone who said they increased the room 10 degrees while riding despite having a good fan. I wanted to point out that although it may make you cooler, a fan in a closed room isn't going to provide any actual cooling to that room. Fans won't cool a closed room, they just spread the heat around evenly. To cool the room, you have to either bring in cool air, or pump the heat out using something like an air conditioner.

Unfortunately, lots of us go into our pain cave and close the door behind us. We likely have good reasons for doing that (Noise, danger to pets/kids), but it does make cooling more of an issue. There are solutions to these issues, but you might have to do some work.
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [Geronimo] [ In reply to ]
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Geronimo wrote:
I don't think it's as much about whether you heat the room up as some are suggesting. I keep my trainer in a two car garage, half of which is my gym. I will dump sweat and wildly overheat even if it's 30F outside without fans. Your body throws off a ton of heat and needs moving air to keep up with that heating and cool down. Even if you're not heating the room that much, you're still generating and surrounded by a ton of heat. One would be more comfortable in an 80 degree room with full body fans than a 60 degree room without moving air.

Your whole body is moving through air outside which has a far larger effect than a single AC unit or fan can have. I currently use three air mover type fans, and have them on a remote switch. Clicking them on dramatically reduces RPE on anything above 85%ish of threshold.

I used a single fan for a long time before beginning to add fans, there was an immediate improvement to indoor power, which had always been below what I could do outside.

It's pretty easy for me to imagine a learning curve on cooling for pros who've just never spent that much time indoors.

And to that point CPTChaos is a highly experience multi time Kona qualifier at the pointy end of our sport. He gets that he has to cool, but he may be limited on how well he can move air around him and have to sucked out of where he trains. Not everyone can change fluid flow in their building that easily even if they know they have to. Did this effect training of some pros during lockdown and race readiness?
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [bufordt] [ In reply to ]
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bufordt wrote:
I agree, a fan will make riding on the trainer more comfortable.

I was responding to someone who said they increased the room 10 degrees while riding despite having a good fan. I wanted to point out that although it may make you cooler, a fan in a closed room isn't going to provide any actual cooling to that room. Fans won't cool a closed room, they just spread the heat around evenly. To cool the room, you have to either bring in cool air, or pump the heat out using something like an air conditioner.

Unfortunately, lots of us go into our pain cave and close the door behind us. We likely have good reasons for doing that (Noise, danger to pets/kids), but it does make cooling more of an issue. There are solutions to these issues, but you might have to do some work.

I hear you, and obviously don't disagree that a fan won't cool the room. It's just that unless a room is REALLY warm, room temperature is almost irrelevant.

Moving air while you're sweating cools you down dramatically because it is a big help to evaporative cooling, which is the whole point of sweating. Even in a cold room you are producing a ton of heat, making the air around you more humid as you sweat. Moving air over you keeps drier air coming, enabling faster evaporation. My point about the garage was that it can be 90 degrees in there, and I can stay just fine with blasting big fans, or be done quickly without them. That evaporation is literally pulling heat off your body and using it for the phase change from water to vapor. It's the basic 5th grade lesson thing where you wet a spot on both arms and blow on one. The wet arm feels slightly cooler, but when you blow on it it feels really cold (that reads to me condescending and I don't mean it that way at all, sorry).

I know that people do go through a lot of machinations to cool rooms, and it's a lot of work to achieve very little. Even in a cool room if you're working you'll be very hot. Cool the body not the room.
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [bufordt] [ In reply to ]
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I fully understand how to cool the room, but was noting how much it warms up inside per the original topic. Sadly, l have no interest in adding an AC unit to make the indoor riding more doable (I abhor it).

If you lived where I lived, you would never open the window since it usually well into the 90s f most days from April to Nov.



"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
Sponsors: SciCon | | Every Man Jack
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [CPT Chaos] [ In reply to ]
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Replying to no one and everyone. Please forgive my ignorance if this is completely stupid, but this thread is pretty interesting to me as an hvac engineer and also has me thinking about the human physiology end of the equation.

Is there any evidence that pros and other very high level endurance athletes are more efficient at burning fuel for energy at these high levels?

Greatly simplifying the physiology (I don't even play a doctor on tv ;-) ) we know that they can process more oxygen (higher VO2max) to enable more fuel to to be burned which yields more energy and higher power output. But do the various energy generating fuels/modes (I don't even know the modes) in the body have different efficiencies? A lower efficiency would indicate more heat generated as a byproduct, right?

If a pro can operate in a given zone using a more efficient energy production mode, then wouldn't they generate less heat for a given power output and the entire system, the body, would operate with less stress...

After writing that I realize I don't even know enough to ask a good question!

Rich
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [Geronimo] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry I’ll take 60 and no fan over 80 with fan. I’ve done both. 60 degree temp wins by a landslide.
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [rrutis] [ In reply to ]
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rrutis wrote:
Replying to no one and everyone. Please forgive my ignorance if this is completely stupid, but this thread is pretty interesting to me as an hvac engineer and also has me thinking about the human physiology end of the equation.

Is there any evidence that pros and other very high level endurance athletes are more efficient at burning fuel for energy at these high levels?

Greatly simplifying the physiology (I don't even play a doctor on tv ;-) ) we know that they can process more oxygen (higher VO2max) to enable more fuel to to be burned which yields more energy and higher power output. But do the various energy generating fuels/modes (I don't even know the modes) in the body have different efficiencies? A lower efficiency would indicate more heat generated as a byproduct, right?

If a pro can operate in a given zone using a more efficient energy production mode, then wouldn't they generate less heat for a given power output and the entire system, the body, would operate with less stress...

After writing that I realize I don't even know enough to ask a good question!

Rich

I remember reading some studies related to what you are asking 20-25 years ago. I believe the answer is that it is trainable but only so much, but that is meaningful when we are squeezing the final ounces of performance from our bodies. But generally the efficiencies (energy output/energy input) is not that indifferent between a completely untrained and a highly trained human (if I recall it may have been a few percentage points.

But let's say one could improve by 3% efficiency, so using a concrete example if one guy producing 400W generates 1600W of heat and another one produces 400W off 1552W that's 50W less not only of heat dissipation, but it's also 50W x 3600s = 180 Kilojoules less energy used in an hour. 8 hours later, the 3% more efficient person used up 1440 less kilojoules. This is a good thing if you are in an endurance event (beyond the heat thing).
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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I have too. If we’re talking a normal propeller fan I would agree with you. I’m talking about several of those large air movers you put on the floor after a flood, hitting most of the body. It’s not a close call for me in that scenario.
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [CPT Chaos] [ In reply to ]
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As a fairly large triathlete, I can tell you that that sort of wattage heats up my garage a treat. 14” fan on full, 10 inch on full, warmup and 35 mins into a TTT in 15 degree weather there’s horrible heat and humidity that beads on the door window.

Could be worse, did a no fan ride in the work gym during the week and sweated enough that the watt bike fan was pushing sweat puddles away from the bike!
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Re: Pro Cyclists Can't get In Race Shape Indoors ? (some basic math) [altayloraus] [ In reply to ]
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altayloraus wrote:
As a fairly large triathlete, I can tell you that that sort of wattage heats up my garage a treat. 14” fan on full, 10 inch on full, warmup and 35 mins into a TTT in 15 degree weather there’s horrible heat and humidity that beads on the door window.

Could be worse, did a no fan ride in the work gym during the week and sweated enough that the watt bike fan was pushing sweat puddles away from the bike!

By the way, at the exact same wattage on the rowing erg vs TT bike no matter what fan is blowing on the bike vs nothing on the erg, the overheating seems less on the erg because the body is moving back and forth 30 times per minute through the air versus no motion on the bike. Some of it is that it is difficult to get the same airflow around the core in the bike position versus outside, but on the rowing machine I think the core opens up and gets exposed on the recovery phase.
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