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Re: White Lightning [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
Slowman wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:

i would look to access first, genetics second, when asking why black people do well or poorly at a particular activity. if you ask black people - and i've asked a lot of them - why they don't swim in greater numbers, a lot of black people actually think they are predisposed against swimming, genetically. "i sink". there were 3 black people, entirely, on our rio olympic team, in water polo and swimming. all 3 walked with gold medals.


Well something is either true or it's not. There are either genes that confer advantage in certain sports (and perhaps other activities) that are unevenly distributed across populations or there aren't. Just because some people draw bad conclusions from that doesn't make it any less true.

I'm not arguing access doesn't matter, it certainly matters immensely for most sports. But that can matter and so can genetics. I could see how access could explain something like a dearth of African Americans participating in cycling or swimming, I have a harder time seeing how it would explain a lack of whites, etc. participating in sprinting track and field events.

as the president of our industry association in triathlon, this question of diversity has been an important, almost consuming, one for me. so i've traveled around, meeting with (for example) black leaders in triathlon, and what i come up with is that "we don't swim". it's not genetic. it's cultural. it's historical. that explains the lack of black swimmers. but it's not that black people just do nothing. they do things other than swim. and what i hear is that the promise that attaches to success in a major sport is why black kids flock to football, basketball, baseball in place of swimming. much more so, and more ardently, than white kids. football in the fall, track in the spring.

likewise, distance running is the ticket out for east africans living in the rift valley. but are they actually more genetically predisposed to distance running? or, did it start with abebe bikila and kip keino living at 6000 feet, with the habit of running as a means of conveyance, one thing leading to another, and here we are?

in cases like this, we attach a built-in predisposition to the cluster of activity around a cohort. jews can't be sprinters and ethiopians can't be CEOs, because they're acting against their genetic predisposition? because ethiopians aren't smart, like jews are? see how easy that is? does that exercise usually end well?

matthew boling and simone manual are my exhibits 1 and 2, but the onus is not on me to prove white people can sprint and that black people can swim. wiser to exhaust the access argument before latching onto genetic predisposition.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: White Lightning [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Sanuk wrote:
I guess I just don't see why there couldn't be populations with genetic advantages when it comes to sprinting, endurance, strength, etc.


It does seem odd to me that so many bend over backwards to insist everyone is equal. Not that I know anything about it but It's okay to be exceptional.

Once we accept that some populations have genetic advantages, we must also accept some populations have genetic disadvantages...and we're not ready to do that.
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Re: White Lightning [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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DJRed wrote:
Once we accept that some populations have genetic advantages, we must also accept some populations have genetic disadvantages...and we're not ready to do that.

i would argue we've been all too ready to do that.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: White Lightning [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
DJRed wrote:
Once we accept that some populations have genetic advantages, we must also accept some populations have genetic disadvantages...and we're not ready to do that.


i would argue we've been all too ready to do that.

You may be right that some people are. And some people may do it solely because of a hatred of that population.

That's not my world.
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Re: White Lightning [b4itwascold] [ In reply to ]
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White lightning is moonshine, not a race thing. It's also a popular name for roller coasters in the south due to the slang term for moonshine running.

Carry on.
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Re: White Lightning [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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White is the most common color for lightning. So white lighting as a metaphor means ordinary.
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Re: White Lightning [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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It does seem odd to me that so many bend over backwards to insist everyone is equal. Not that I know anything about it but It's okay to be exceptional.


Once we accept that some populations have genetic advantages, we must also accept some populations have genetic disadvantages...and we're not ready to do that.



Yeah, I think you're right.

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Re: White Lightning [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Sanuk wrote:
It does seem odd to me that so many bend over backwards to insist everyone is equal. Not that I know anything about it but It's okay to be exceptional.


Once we accept that some populations have genetic advantages, we must also accept some populations have genetic disadvantages...and we're not ready to do that.



Yeah, I think you're right.

Except what we should care about is the individual and not the population. Just because a population on average be more likely to have some advantageous or disadvantageous genes shouldn't really matter in most instances. It's not like for whatever you're talking about you can't measure the performance of a given individual and see how they do, may be they are the 1 in a million from their population even if in another population there are 100s or 1000s with similar genetic advantages.
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Re: White Lightning [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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No one is saying black people can't swim or white people can't sprint.

As for your east African assertion, perhaps you're right but I still find it interesting that nearly all of the Kenyans come from one relatively small tribe. Surely they're not the only east African people who have seen running can be a "way out".
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Re: White Lightning [b4itwascold] [ In reply to ]
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I don't perceive it as racist but I do think it is inappropriate to use color in the descriptor.
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Re: White Lightning [rich_m] [ In reply to ]
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rich_m wrote:
are these normal high schools - where kids go there based on where they live, or private schools that recruit athletic talent with free tuition - so they can sweep a large area? Either way the overall standard is impressive.

Only Strake Jesuit is a private school. All the others were public schools where attendance is determined by where you live.
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Re: White Lightning [Harbinger] [ In reply to ]
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Harbinger wrote:
I don't perceive it as racist but I do think it is inappropriate to use color in the descriptor.


I agree.
So I did some goggling and came across Jason Williams (we all remember), he was given a nickname White Chocolate back in the day when he played in Sacramento. He actually loved it but still it caused a public debate. Apparently he has a tattoo saying whiteboy.

"Jason White Chocolate Williams
Back in 1999, in his second year with the Sacramento Kings, a lady named Stephanie Shephard, a public relations employee of the team, offered up the name "White Chocolate" for Williams. She commented that his game reminded her of how youths in Chicago played street ball and said his ball skills were reminiscent, for her, of the enthusiasm of such young people. Williams himself, likes his nickname to this day, and even has "white boy" tattooed on his knuckles. That didn't stop people from complaining about the complimentary but racist nickname however."

ETA: Also Kobe Bryant was called the Black Mamba, a nickname he gave himself.

So these athletes embrace it, is it making it more acceptable?
Last edited by: b4itwascold: Jun 6, 19 13:31
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Re: White Lightning [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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The book titled "The Sports Gene", by David Epstein addresses many of the questions posed here and it's very interesting.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining
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Re: White Lightning [b4itwascold] [ In reply to ]
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b4itwascold wrote:
Harbinger wrote:
I don't perceive it as racist but I do think it is inappropriate to use color in the descriptor.


I agree.
So I did some goggling and came across Jason Williams (we all remember), he was given a nickname White Chocolate back in the day when he played in Sacramento. He actually loved it but still it caused a public debate. Apparently he has a tattoo saying whiteboy.

"Jason White Chocolate Williams
Back in 1999, in his second year with the Sacramento Kings, a lady named Stephanie Shephard, a public relations employee of the team, offered up the name "White Chocolate" for Williams. She commented that his game reminded her of how youths in Chicago played street ball and said his ball skills were reminiscent, for her, of the enthusiasm of such young people. Williams himself, likes his nickname to this day, and even has "white boy" tattooed on his knuckles. That didn't stop people from complaining about the complimentary but racist nickname however."

ETA: Also Kobe Bryant was called the Black Mamba, a nickname he gave himself.

So these athletes embrace it, is it making it more acceptable?

Except "Black Mamba" is an entire thing. "Black" is not the chosen descriptor for Kobe because he's black.

It this case "white" is the chosen descriptor of the person who is "lightening".

My nickname at the Local Fellowship House was also White Chocolate because I could ball with 9 black kids and hold my own. I assure you the "white" was firmly attached to me because I was white. It was simultaneously both a compliment and a joke. It meant, "Damn, this white boy can play!!! (exclamation)" and "Damn, this white boy can play???(surprise)"
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Re: White Lightning [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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I agree about the black mamba.
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Re: White Lightning [b4itwascold] [ In reply to ]
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b4itwascold wrote:
He actually loved it... so these athletes embrace it, is it making it more acceptable?

yeah. we had one or two people in this thread arguing that "white lightning" is a great name for this high schooler even tho the high schooler himself was uncomfortable with it, and didn't like it, because (i think) he's white, his teammates are black, and he doesn't like the idea that he's separated out as the white champion in some artificial competition with black athletes (his teammates and friends included). so, yeah, i think if the kid himself is more race-sensitive than his fans, and his fans nevertheless choose to call him by a name that he's uncomfortable with, that would be a problem.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: White Lightning [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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The issue is that the "white" modifier is clearly in reference of race and the limitations it generally puts on a person's sprinting ability... It says that he's really fast... for a white guy. And implies that this speed is measured to a lower standard than a unmodified "Lightning" fast runner. This boy is racing against all races and skin colors and beating them. He's Lightning fast. Not just white guy fast.

Consider this: A few years ago there was an amazingly good Jeopardy player, Colby Burnett. He won both the Teachers Tournament and Tournament of Champions. He was (is?) one of the top-10 best ever on the show. Words like 'genius'. 'brainiac', and 'nerd' were used to describe him (in their most positive connotations). Can you imagine if a major publication modified these as 'black genius' or 'black braniac'.
That would be clearly wrong - both in a racist sense and because it would have qualified his accomplishments.

Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's
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Re: White Lightning [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]
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Guffaw wrote:
The issue is that the "white" modifier is clearly in reference of race and the limitations it generally puts on a person's sprinting ability... It says that he's really fast... for a white guy. And implies that this speed is measured to a lower standard than a unmodified "Lightning" fast runner. This boy is racing against all races and skin colors and beating them. He's Lightning fast. Not just white guy fast.

Consider this: A few years ago there was an amazingly good Jeopardy player, Colby Burnett. He won both the Teachers Tournament and Tournament of Champions. He was (is?) one of the top-10 best ever on the show. Words like 'genius'. 'brainiac', and 'nerd' were used to describe him (in their most positive connotations). Can you imagine if a major publication modified these as 'black genius' or 'black braniac'. That would be clearly wrong - both in a racist sense and because it would have qualified his accomplishments.

i agree with you. if he himself would have liked black genius, promoted the name himself, that would have made it less racist. or not at all racist. or maybe a joke on racism, making racism the butt of the joke, for those smart enough to get the joke. but that's up to the subject to decide. this subject doesn't find the humor in it.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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