Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience

May 31, 19 3:41

Post #1 of 24 (2490 views)

Going to be pacing my wife this September for a 4 hour marathon. Have no idea what the recovery will be like but it will be in the middle of a buildup for a 70.3

A bit about myself. I probably have a 4 hour marathon fitness base having been steadily training for 6 years plus. That would be just out the door and jog a marathon
during the off season. With in season long course try fitness I would guess I could pull off 3:20 maybe a bit faster. I did run a 3:48 at the end of my first year of endurance training
after training specifically for a marathon over a 4 month period. A lot of guessing here. My garmin race predictor claims a touch under 3 hours is theoretically possible.

Anybody care to share what their recovery was like pacing someone?

Re: Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience [TravelingTri] [ In reply to ]

May 31, 19 3:59

Post #2 of 24 (2456 views)

TravelingTri wrote:

Going to be pacing my wife this September for a 4 hour marathon. Have no idea what the recovery will be like but it will be in the middle of a buildup for a 70.3

A bit about myself. I probably have a 4 hour marathon fitness base having been steadily training for 6 years plus. That would be just out the door and jog a marathon
during the off season. With in season long course try fitness I would guess I could pull off 3:20 maybe a bit faster. I did run a 3:48 at the end of my first year of endurance training
after training specifically for a marathon over a 4 month period. A lot of guessing here. My garmin race predictor claims a touch under 3 hours is theoretically possible.

Anybody care to share what their recovery was like pacing someone?

I can't help you with your primary question but I can tell you this: do not believe Garmin race predictor. Mine says 2:40 for the marathon but I would not dream of going under 2:57

Re: Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience [TravelingTri] [ In reply to ]

May 31, 19 5:21

Post #3 of 24 (2392 views)

The normal logic is 3-4 weeks to fully recover from racing a marathon... Despite the easier effort while pacing, you still have a lot of time on the feet, so my guess would be 2-3 weeks to have that effort fully out of your legs... The last time I raced a full, I raced a standard distance duathlon two weeks later (solid result, but I wasn't quite fully recovered) and a crit the day after that (suffered like hell in that one...). How far does the pacing gig fall from your 70.3? I would probably say schedule an easier recovery week the week after pacing the full, gradually reintroduce some intensity the next week, and then reintroduce volume to go along with the intensity on week 3, as long as you're not pushing into taper time (again depending on how much time you have between the two...).

Re: Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience [TravelingTri] [ In reply to ]

May 31, 19 5:32

Post #4 of 24 (2369 views)

i have paced a marathon five times - three for organized groups and twice for individuals. The individual races were both at Philidelphia, at the end of November, and i did not have any more racing for the year, so i did not worry about recovery at all.

The organized groups were all for the Ottawa marathon at the end of May. For me, the end of May was a couple of months into the run race season but a month or more before any triathlons. I think was fit enough to run 10 - 15 minutes faster than the group pace, and was training for ironman or iron-distance races later in the year, usually August.

Recovery was never much of a problem. I would swim with the squad on Tuesday and Thursday; do easy bike rides Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday; and then do the Ottawa-Kennebunkport bike tour on the Thursday-Friday-Saturday-Sunday. The tour (sadly no longer being done) was 600 - 700 km. I usually ran a bit after the day's ride. It was a good time to get bike volume while the legs are recovering from the marathon. By two weeks after the marathon, I would be back in full training again.

I have no experience with Garmin race predictor. The McMillan and Jack Daniel's predictors are fairly decent. They do assume that you have done the appropiate training for the distance. I.e. if you put a 25:00 5km into the McMillan calculater, it predicts a 4:03:36. But if you haven't done enough long runs and other marathon-type training, you aren't going to run 4:03 :-) Personally, I have always had better endurance than speed and find McMillan to be too optimistic for short distances and too pessimistic for long distances. Sprinter-people may see the opposite.

good luck to your wife for her race, and to you for your 70.3

run well, run happy
george

Re: Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience [TravelingTri] [ In reply to ]

May 31, 19 5:48

Post #5 of 24 (2339 views)

In my experience racing a marathon, and pacing it much slower than normal, end up with nearly the same recovery cost. Sure you are going slower, and that is theoretically easier on your body, but you are out there much longer than you might normally be, and that seems to make up the difference.

At least for me I felt like it took me a good week to stop being sore from both a PR <3 marathon and a paced marathon finishing around 4:30. Although I would say the bounce back to real training probably took longer after the PR race, and I was good to go sooner after the 4:30 run.

Re: Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience [TravelingTri] [ In reply to ]

May 31, 19 6:26

Post #6 of 24 (2295 views)

I pace slower than my typical marathon time. I do it so I can run comfortably, and I dont want to be a pacer who ends up hitting the wall and screwing up every one around him :)

So pacing slower, the recovery time is like 2 days or so - but I run a lot.

NEVER look at that race predictor. I run a 20 minute 5K and am around that mark every 5K I do (dozens per year) and the Race Predictor tells me I can do a 17:30. F that thing. I cant hold that pace for half a mile.

Re: Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience [TravelingTri] [ In reply to ]

May 31, 19 6:55

Post #7 of 24 (2244 views)

I've paced my wife twice in marathons. The most recent was in October at Marine Corps, which we rain in just over 4:30. It was my longest run ever time-wise, but took the least out of me. I was back to regular training by Thursday of that week - no real DOMS or fatigue that I'd feel after an open marathon or even a 70.3.

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Re: Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience [natethomas] [ In reply to ]

May 31, 19 9:10

Post #8 of 24 (2131 views)

I would not pace a marathon 30 min slower than what I can because then it programs bad run form

Re: Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience [TravelingTri] [ In reply to ]

May 31, 19 9:18

Post #9 of 24 (2118 views)

Assuming you have the miles in your legs to run a 3:20.

The questions is....how long is the recovery for a catered 4 hour easy run.

If you fuel well after the run, stretch, roll out, and take the following day totally off training, I'd guess you'd be ok to ride or swim a moderate effort three to four days later. Should be ok to do an easy swim/bike two days later.

If you are only prepared to run a 3:45 then this all goes out the window. It will be a longer recovery.

Re: Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience [synthetic] [ In reply to ]

May 31, 19 9:39

Post #10 of 24 (2089 views)

synthetic wrote:

I would not pace a marathon 30 min slower than what I can because then it programs bad run form

+1

Whenever I ran significantly slower than my “normal” pace (like running a HM with a friend for fun) I ended up with weird aches and pains. I suspect due to bad run form.

Re: Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience [synthetic] [ In reply to ]

May 31, 19 10:09

Post #11 of 24 (2061 views)

synthetic wrote:

I would not pace a marathon 30 min slower than what I can because then it programs bad run form

I have to disagree. My long run training/easy pace is over a minute per mile slower than my marathon pace (as it is for most people). If you're pacing at your easy pace, how is it any different than just a long training run?

Re: Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience [mgreer] [ In reply to ]

May 31, 19 11:09

Post #12 of 24 (2012 views)

mgreer wrote:

synthetic wrote:

I would not pace a marathon 30 min slower than what I can because then it programs bad run form

I have to disagree. My long run training/easy pace is over a minute per mile slower than my marathon pace (as it is for most people). If you're pacing at your easy pace, how is it any different than just a long training run?

4 hour time is 9:09 pace vs 3:20 @ 7:37. Not a 1 min difference. Maybe op can do run walk

Re: Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience [natethomas] [ In reply to ]

May 31, 19 11:16

Post #13 of 24 (1998 views)

I think it all comes down to how much you’re running currently and how fast your open marathon would be.

As other have said, completely ignore the Garmin race predictor. It’s total rubbish. Mine said I could run a 2:40 last week. And that ain’t happening any time soon given I’m barely running 25-30 mph right now. I did a set of Yasso 800s last week on 2:45 just for shits and was so demolished I got sick and barely ran a 1:35 pretty tame trail half marathon C race last weekend. And that just got me sicker!

Anyhow, I think think the answer is it depends. Assuming 4:00 pace is close to your “easy” run pace and thus something you’re accustomed to, I don’t think it would do much more damage than a long 20 mile training run if you’re truly in 3:00 marathon shape. But if you don’t have the miles in your legs or if the pace is very foreign to you, the toll could be substantial. Aren’t you the guy who started a thread recently about feeling tired all the time during your current IM build? I’d tread carefully my friend. Pace the race for sure, but give your body mind and endocrine system time to heal. Just the pressure of knowing someone is depending on you to not blow up and get them to a 4:00 finish is real and can take it’s toll even if your body isn’t hurting too bad.

Re: Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience [Anton84] [ In reply to ]

May 31, 19 11:29

Post #14 of 24 (1983 views)

Anton84 wrote:

synthetic wrote:

I would not pace a marathon 30 min slower than what I can because then it programs bad run form

+1

Whenever I ran significantly slower than my “normal” pace (like running a HM with a friend for fun) I ended up with weird aches and pains. I suspect due to bad run form.

+1 to this. But I suspect with Garmin “grade inflation” OPs easy pace and his wife’s MP might actually be pretty well matched.

Re: Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience [wintershade] [ In reply to ]

May 31, 19 11:38

Post #15 of 24 (1971 views)

I find it weird that Garmin overestimates you. In Polar flow I have a race predictor based on the average index I get for all my runs. I have never not beaten the predictions in a 5k or a 10k race yet. I typically hit the times in triathlons, but I guess they use a different algorithm.

Re: Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience [TravelingTri] [ In reply to ]

May 31, 19 11:56

Post #16 of 24 (1956 views)

I was doing a 12 week program for a marathon, and about 5 weeks in I decided to pace the lead woman in a local race. In all the years past it was low 2;50's for the winning woman, so I figured that would be a good last long run. Well f&^k me, the winning woman went 2;42, so there I was laying off in the last 200 yds, so as not to get into her pics. Took me about a week to get back to some good running, which was about 40 miles a week at race pace, so not too bad really..

But everyone has different durabilities and that has to be taken into account. I never ran on the road, except to race, all dirt trails. Use the bike to keep training that week after, and flush and recover the legs..

Re: Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience [TravelingTri] [ In reply to ]

May 31, 19 12:22

Post #17 of 24 (1928 views)

mostly depends on how much you are running now..
time on your feet is the best predictor of how much recovery will be needed.
That is, more time on your feet in training, less recovery.

It's still a marathon, even if run at an easy pace. Get in 3-plus hours on your feet, at least twice a month, then I'd expect recovery will be quite quick. If not doing much running and not doing these long (in time, don't have to be long distance) runs, recovery will be most likely be slow and painful.

I used to run marathons as training runs during ultra buildup. Racing time would have been 2:45-50, ran the training runs at 3:10-15 and took one recovery day, then straight back into normal training.
Of course I was younger then too.

Re: Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience [doug in co] [ In reply to ]

May 31, 19 12:33

Post #18 of 24 (1919 views)

If you are currently doing 20+ mile long runs- it will take you 1 wk to recover. And not disrupt training.

If you are currently doing 15+ mile long runs it will take you 1.5 weeks to recover.

If your long runs are less than 15 miles it might take 2 weeks or more to fully recover from.

Re: Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience [TravelingTri] [ In reply to ]

May 31, 19 13:41

Post #19 of 24 (1878 views)

Actually paced my mom in the Boston Marathon last month. Here is a write-up I did about it:

https://www.gingerhowell.com/blog

To summarize, I went into it with the assumption that a 5-hour marathon would be much easier than a 3:20 marathon. Around mile 15, I decided that maybe it wouldn't be so easy after all. I found myself unable to slow down my normal cadence (180+) so I ended up taking very short strides the whole way, and I think I did roughly 1.5x the number of foot strikes I do in a normal marathon.

Less muscle soreness than usual - only time I've been able to go down a flight of stairs without my quads hurting afterward. But my hips were sore, my legs felt really, really pounded, and my feet hurt a lot.

My easy pace is around 8 min / mile - so running at 11- or 12-min / mile felt completely foreign to me. It's good that your pace and your wife's pace are closer together - I honestly think a 4 hour marathon would have been easier.

For reference, I did St Anthony's Tri two weeks later. I didn't taper for Boston at all, and then drastically reduced training volume - especially running - in the two weeks between the two races. Didn't feel like I had my running legs back until the weekend of the race. Overall it was a decent performance, though I'd like to think I could have gone a couple of minutes faster if I hadn't beaten my legs up like that two weeks before.

Hope this helps!

https://www.instagram.com/gingerhowellracing/
If you find yourself thinking "What if I can't", instead think "What if I can!"

Re: Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience [gingersnaps] [ In reply to ]

May 31, 19 18:40

Post #20 of 24 (1798 views)

Well dang nab thanks for a ton of very useful feedback from everyone!

I knew I shouldn't have mentioned the race predictor as it is quite a laugher but my open running ability is a highly suspect to me right now after too much Ironman run training where I have been just trying to pile on volume the past few seasons. I need to do a 10K race again with a little specific prep just for the heck of it. Currently in off-season after IMTX. (on the southern hemisphere plan) But I was grasping at straws trying to get some measure of my actual ability to describe to you since pacing recovery could be quite variable depending on pacers open ability vs race pacing effort.

This marathon is going to be about 10 weeks before the 70.3 so at the start of the most critical training period I would say. Being a shift worker I have a bit more flexibility on my training blocks and recovery periods so I am going to try to time this at the beginning of a recovery period, skip the traditional "longer" run workout the next week and then hopefully return to a normal week of running 8 days after the race. That should give me 2 weeks for another "longer" workout which by at that point will probably have a bit more 70.3 race effort periods rather than just long and slow(wish)

My wife is hoping to run 4:15 so I figured I better be rock solid for a 4 hour jog with very little effort on my part to be able to give her the support she deserves. The one wild card in this whole thing is that she is going to be training over the summer just outside NYC and then the final push back here in Dubai where it is going to be all indoors. The race is the Warsaw marathon on Sept 29, and if the weather meets my expectations it could be significantly "cold" and really get her going quite a bit faster than she expects.

I just jumped on the treadmill for a first longer run since Texas and did 90 minutes covering 17km. The pace was extremely easy feeling and hr was nice and low. So my starting point seems good to go, got not quite 4 months out from the race. Plenty of time.

My takeaway is that I have a bit more confidence that this shouldn't be super destructive to my 70.3 race build.

Re: Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience [TravelingTri] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 19 12:26

Post #21 of 24 (1647 views)

TravelingTri wrote:

Well dang nab thanks for a ton of very useful feedback from everyone!

I knew I shouldn't have mentioned the race predictor as it is quite a laugher but my open running ability is a highly suspect to me right now after too much Ironman run training where I have been just trying to pile on volume the past few seasons. I need to do a 10K race again with a little specific prep just for the heck of it. Currently in off-season after IMTX. (on the southern hemisphere plan) But I was grasping at straws trying to get some measure of my actual ability to describe to you since pacing recovery could be quite variable depending on pacers open ability vs race pacing effort.

This marathon is going to be about 10 weeks before the 70.3 so at the start of the most critical training period I would say. Being a shift worker I have a bit more flexibility on my training blocks and recovery periods so I am going to try to time this at the beginning of a recovery period, skip the traditional "longer" run workout the next week and then hopefully return to a normal week of running 8 days after the race. That should give me 2 weeks for another "longer" workout which by at that point will probably have a bit more 70.3 race effort periods rather than just long and slow(wish)

My wife is hoping to run 4:15 so I figured I better be rock solid for a 4 hour jog with very little effort on my part to be able to give her the support she deserves. The one wild card in this whole thing is that she is going to be training over the summer just outside NYC and then the final push back here in Dubai where it is going to be all indoors. The race is the Warsaw marathon on Sept 29, and if the weather meets my expectations it could be significantly "cold" and really get her going quite a bit faster than she expects.

I just jumped on the treadmill for a first longer run since Texas and did 90 minutes covering 17km. The pace was extremely easy feeling and hr was nice and low. So my starting point seems good to go, got not quite 4 months out from the race. Plenty of time.

My takeaway is that I have a bit more confidence that this shouldn't be super destructive to my 70.3 race build.

so it sounds you are ignoring people's advice and are going to do it... I also like how her goal time now is 15 min slower putting you in double digit pace... poor form is hard to unlearn

Re: Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience [synthetic] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 19 13:16

Post #22 of 24 (1626 views)

Personally I wouldn't worry about the poor form question. Even if someone was in 3:20 form then a pace calculator might put you at 8:37 to 9:44 per mile for your long run. So the higher end of that is close enough to 4:15 marathon pace as makes no difference. But the OP says they aren't in that shape anyway and do you really think you can ingrain bad form in that little time?

I'd do it for a friend without a second thought let alone my wife.

Re: Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience [synthetic] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 19 14:38

Post #23 of 24 (1597 views)

What a load of nonsense. My easy run pace is almost exactly a minute slower than my marathon pace. I can't run marathon pace for any substantial distance more than twice or it busts me.

I'd say 30mins slower than race is perfect. I paced a friend to 2 59, treated it as a long training run and was out the day after. Much closer to race pace and I'd have needed time off.

Re: Marathon as a pacer - Your recovery experience [TravelingTri] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 19 16:20

Post #24 of 24 (1548 views)

When the Marine Corps decided to send a bunch of us to Boston in 2004, my buddy and I spent the winter banging out three-hour training runs. We both thought we would be fast but alas, it was not to be. He was not recovered from moving and painting his house and I had the oddest quad cramp that I have never had before or since. We ended up "running" 3:14 and 3:19, which was almost exactly the same pace as our training runs had been. Six days later we both enter a local duathlon on a whim since neither of us felt bad and ended up 2nd and 3rd. The runs were a bit sore but we crushed the bike and went pretty fast. I would agree with the person who said that if you are doing 20+ mile runs, your recovery will be minimal. If you are doing less than it could stretch into a couple of weeks.

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