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Re: Canadian Recession [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
I’ve been hearing that the housing bubble will pop in Canada for a very long time. Yet it doesn’t.


So colour me skeptical that this is the time that it will actually pop.


Well, that brings up a salient quote from John Maynard Keynes

Quote:
The markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent

The catalyst for any bubble to burst always makes sense after the fact... and sometimes before. Right now the two frontrunners are a dearth of capital inflows from Asia into Canadian housing and a solvency crisis in Canada's oil and gas industry.

Let's back up and remember that households, unlike governments (in theory), are constrained in their expenditures. There are clear tradeoffs at any given point in time. So let's just say a solvency crisis in O&G prompts rate cuts by the BoC. The Loonie gets hit. If the Loonie falls relative to the dollar that makes imports more expensive because virtually all of Canada's foreign trade is settled in U.S. dollars. Households will be flexible in their consumption of some imports but be rigid in others. Those products they continue to consume will reduce disposable income available for other things... like paying a mortgage.

Note that the reason "why" a country willingly devalues its currency is almost as important as the devaluation itself. Canada's reason is not a good reason: one of its industries is on the rocks, possibly permanently. However we're just getting started: there are two other threats to Canada's housing sector: a lack of inflows from Asia (China) and Canada's own population.

There is one upside to a Loonie devaluation: it makes Canadian real estate cheaper to foreign buyers. However this assumes foreign buyers can make it to the door in the first place. The majority (65% last time I looked) of new immigrants into Canada for the last decade or so have been from Asia and the majority of those have been from China. Unfortunately for Canada, China is closing its doors as fast as it can.

I'll get more into China's dilemma in another thread but, suffice it to say, China is closing its own exit doors as fast as possible. The days of newly-minted Chinese millionaires buying real estate in Vancouver are at an end. Besides the capital controls that the Chinese government employs, there's another hard limit on the channels through which Chinese capital can leave: currency markets. Simply put, the only way to get a meaningful amount of capital out of China is to convert Renminbi into Dollars and then, if the individual wants to make their way to Canada, convert the Dollars into Loonies. There is no Loonie/Renminbi market to speak of outside of arbitragers. Further, if a Chinese individual were to try to do something stupid like convert $10mil USD in Renminbi to Loonies by "over-invoicing" (a common ploy for getting capital out of China) for Canadian imports, Chinese regulators would quickly spot the anomalous transaction and said individual would likely end up in a... ahem... "re-education facility".

Dollars have become rather dear in China recently but I won't get into that in this post. The short of it is, the on-shore dollar funding crisis in China will make it significantly harder for wealthy Chinese to buy Canadian real estate. Those marginal buyers are gone.

To make things significantly worse though, Canada is running out of its own buyers. Canada's domestic birth rate fell to ~1.6/couple in the early 90s. As a result, Canada has a distorted demography.




For perspective, this is what a "normal" population pyramid looks like:

I harp on this periodically on this forum but there's a lifecycle to consumption: when you enter the workforce at a young age your skills are low, your income is low, but your spending needs are somewhat high: car loans, college loans, credit cards. Earn, borrow, borrow, spend, spend, spend. As you age a bit you start earning more income but you start doing things like buying a house, starting a family... things that cost considerably more. Earn, earn, borrow, borrow, borrow, spend, spend.... spend. As you age more your income continues to rise. You're middle aged, kids are on their own (hopefully), and there are no major purchases on the horizon. This is when you earn and save. The key point here is that you earn more than you spend and this is the essence of a population with a high savings rate. It's also the essence of a population that can afford to be taxed a lot.

If you look at India's population pyramid, you see a country where the savings of the old very nearly balance out the borrowing of the young (slight skew in India toward consumption). As a result, India can consume everything it produces (and a bit more) which means there's an underlying inflationary force. Canada is aging toward a population pyramid that would make for a net-exporter but the problem is the only Canadian exports that are sort-of competitive now are oil and gas and ag commodities. However oil and gas exports are threatened by U.S. production and finished goods exports (think cars and trucks) are under severe threat by Mexico.

In a country like Canada, you can see that the population is nicely skewed toward middle aged circa 2010 and the population steadily ages thereafter. Older people aren't new home buyers almost by definition. They can trade amongst themselves but they won't constitute new demand. As every year ticks by, there are fewer and fewer young families to buy the homes of the deceased or those downsizing and, eventually, you hit an inflection point in the market where there's more supply than demand.

What does that inflection point look like? Inventory surges. Time on the market surges. That's the beginning. Owners and speculators get nervous. Speculators eye their carrying costs, feel out the market, and then.... hit the bid. Whatever bid they can find. This starts a cascade.

When will it happen? This week? This month? This year? Who knows. Timing is a fool's errand though I would say look at inventory and time on the market as indicators.

There's another important point to discuss about Canadian demography: healthcare.

For the last couple of decades, Canada has been in a sweet spot for healthcare. People in their 30s, 40s, and 50s are in a sweet spot for paying taxes and not needing a lot of (government provided) healthcare. As the cohorts of Canadians age into their 60s and 70s increase, this calculus will change (keep an eye on the 45-59 and 60+ age brackets). You'll have fewer people in their earning and tax-paying prime and more people needing more healthcare..... and thus necessitating greater fiscal outlays which will, in turn, require greater taxation.

So, in summary, Canada is staring down the following:
  • over-levered households
  • struggling oil and gas (and other resource) exports
  • a dearth of incremental Chinese homebuyers
  • a dearth of incremental domestic homebuyers
  • heavy future fiscal outlays to deal with healthcare

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Re: Canadian Recession [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Sanuk wrote:
I’ve been hearing that the housing bubble will pop in Canada for a very long time. Yet it doesn’t.


I moved from Vancouver and a lot of people were starting to believe that Vancouver wasn't in a bubble, just in the new reality. There have been warnings of a crash for about 6 years and someday the doom sayers will be right simply because things go in cycles. However, there is zero chance that cities like Vancouver and Toronto will go back to their real estate prices of 20 years ago, they are just going to be more expensive to live in.

Updated. Prices of 20 years ago? Maybe not in nominal terms. However "real" economic forces always assert themselves over the long run.
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Re: Canadian Recession [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you! This is super-informative.
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Re: Canadian Recession [hyr00] [ In reply to ]
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We went to Vancouver last fall to spend a week in the Great White North (banana belt region). I get all my gossip from bartenders who seem to have their finger on the pulse of the world. They all agreed that Western Canada was and has been going bat shit crazy for the last 8 years or so. They all seemed to think that the China boom is slowing down, but India and Koreans are still moving there with bags full of cash and making the housing market untouchable for the locals. It seemed Victoria was not too far behind Vancouver.
Out of town people with bags of cash moving in have vastly changed the face of the landscape everywhere that is a cool place to live. It is hard to believe the boom will ever slow or stop, but sometime it has to. In the meantime people with bags of cash will buy million dollar condos and live in them for a few weeks a year. Sure makes it tough on the local bartenders of Western Canada and the rest of the world.
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Re: Canadian Recession [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for pissing in my corn flakes this morning. But that's ok, they've been urine flavoured for a while now.

Seriously though, thank you for the thorough explanation. As depressing as it is, I agree with your analysis. And once again, it confirms my need to get out of oil and gas.
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Re: Canadian Recession [Ringmaster] [ In reply to ]
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yeah - that was a good read i guess

makes me kinda stressed out as someone who
- has a big mortgage, 2 kids, etc
- works for a large civil construction company in greater Vancouver

oh well, maybe i'll just buy a 6 pack on the way home to feel better :)
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Re: Canadian Recession [G-man] [ In reply to ]
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I have worked in the residential construction industry in Victoria for the last 15 years.

Whenever I hear about our housing bubble I look around. There is demand here from every corner of the Earth. Canadians take lower paying jobs to get out of Toronto, Calgary, etc and live on the coast. There are a ton of stable, well paying government jobs here that are seemingly impervious to recession. When Chinese buyers stop showing up, indian or Korean one's do (as you mentioned). Specifically in Victoria, we live on a peninsula and there is only so much land to build on in the city core.

I think, so long as the weather here remains the best in the country, the areas are safe and clean, Victoria and Vancouver will be unaffordable for a long, long time. We are talking about places that are routinely listed among the best to live in the world. Winnipeg and Calgary, yeah, I can see those bubbles bursting hard. Vancouver will go down once the criminal element is removed from what is going on with RE there, and Victoria will go down slightly with it, but, no one here is too worried about a bursting bubble right now.

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: Canadian Recession [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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Wtf man? The place I was born AND the place I live? C'mon. Pick on Regina like everyone else.

I'll leave the housing bubble discussion to more knowledgeable people.

However, if places like Vancouver and Victoria remain drastically unaffordable (especially Vancouver) how is that beneficial to the average resident? Now and especially in the future? Is your daughter going to be able to afford a home when she's an adult? Hell, is she going to be able to afford rent?

I just checked my childhood neighbourhood in North Van. Homes are listed around 2 million. It's just a middle class suburb. I can't afford that.

I'm glad it's working for you, but I don't see how it's sustainable long term.
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Re: Canadian Recession [y_nigel] [ In reply to ]
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I wouldn't stress too much if i were you. I assume if you're doing large civil construction work, a large majority of it is govenment infrastructure work. That seems relatively secure.

Try being an engineer in Calgary. I've been stressed for years. I'm the primary earner in my home, 3 kids, etc. Fortunately my mortgage is under $250, buy used cars, etc.

But most importantly, whatcha drinkin?

(3 pages in on a thread about Canada and finally a mention of beer?)
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Re: Canadian Recession [Ringmaster] [ In reply to ]
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Ringmaster wrote:
Wtf man? The place I was born AND the place I live? C'mon. Pick on Regina like everyone else.

I'll leave the housing bubble discussion to more knowledgeable people.

However, if places like Vancouver and Victoria remain drastically unaffordable (especially Vancouver) how is that beneficial to the average resident? Now and especially in the future? Is your daughter going to be able to afford a home when she's an adult? Hell, is she going to be able to afford rent?

I just checked my childhood neighbourhood in North Van. Homes are listed around 2 million. It's just a middle class suburb. I can't afford that.

I'm glad it's working for you, but I don't see how it's sustainable long term.

Well, in fairness, it's not really working for me. We barely squeaked in to the market before it got red, red hot, but still it was an uncomfortable stretch for us. We paid just over half a million for a 70 year old time capsule of a home on a small lot, in a great location.

I mean, it's great that we are in and all, but, what do we do from here? We could sell and clear 300k right now... But then what? Buy in at a million for an equally shitty house elsewhere? We will eventually out grow this house and I'm not sure what our options will be at that point.

The one plus side of this market has been a good, steady income for myself.

My comment was more meant to say that the fundamentals of RE demand here are pretty strong. Location, location, location. Victoria used to be a sleepy town for retirees only. It is no longer that town, and it is priced accordingly.

Vancouver is in a whole other stratosphere of unaffordability, but that is largely due to criminal elements and money laundering.

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: Canadian Recession [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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BCtriguy1 wrote:
I have worked in the residential construction industry in Victoria for the last 15 years.

Whenever I hear about our housing bubble I look around. There is demand here from every corner of the Earth. Canadians take lower paying jobs to get out of Toronto, Calgary, etc and live on the coast. There are a ton of stable, well paying government jobs here that are seemingly impervious to recession. When Chinese buyers stop showing up, indian or Korean one's do (as you mentioned). Specifically in Victoria, we live on a peninsula and there is only so much land to build on in the city core.

I wouldn't bet the farm on Korea taking China's place for incremental RE demand in Canada. First, Korea is a small country. Second, it has close to the worst demographic profile in the world and one of the lowest fertility rates in the world (maybe *the* worst, been a while since I checked).



This is a terminal demographic profile. There is no turning around, no reversing the trend. Their fertility rate has fallen to 1.17 (I just checked, 2.1 is replacement btw) which means that they are accelerating toward a future of no young workers, no young consumers, and no young taxpayers. Such a country, bereft on natural resources, can only hope to exist in some comfort by building infrastructure while it can, exporting as much as it can as long as it can, and hoarding its savings for as long as it can. Those savings won't leave either because, at some point, South Korea will have to implement capital controls.

If you want to have hope for future incremental RE demand in Canada, hope for India.
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Re: Canadian Recession [Ringmaster] [ In reply to ]
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Ringmaster wrote:
I wouldn't stress too much if i were you. I assume if you're doing large civil construction work, a large majority of it is govenment infrastructure work. That seems relatively secure.

Try being an engineer in Calgary. I've been stressed for years. I'm the primary earner in my home, 3 kids, etc. Fortunately my mortgage is under $250, buy used cars, etc.

But most importantly, whatcha drinkin?

(3 pages in on a thread about Canada and finally a mention of beer?)

Its a mix of government and private. Last 5 years or so i've been working mostly bidding/managing Bulk Excavation and Shoring for my company. They are building towers like mad in the lower mainland and we're pretty competitive for Dump Sites due to our gravel pits in the Valley.

This is my most recent favorite. Its got a nice balance - can find six packs everywhere in the lower mainland
http://parallel49brewing.com/beers/36
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Re: Canadian Recession [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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BCtriguy1 wrote:
Ringmaster wrote:
Wtf man? The place I was born AND the place I live? C'mon. Pick on Regina like everyone else.

I'll leave the housing bubble discussion to more knowledgeable people.

However, if places like Vancouver and Victoria remain drastically unaffordable (especially Vancouver) how is that beneficial to the average resident? Now and especially in the future? Is your daughter going to be able to afford a home when she's an adult? Hell, is she going to be able to afford rent?

I just checked my childhood neighbourhood in North Van. Homes are listed around 2 million. It's just a middle class suburb. I can't afford that.

I'm glad it's working for you, but I don't see how it's sustainable long term.


Well, in fairness, it's not really working for me. We barely squeaked in to the market before it got red, red hot, but still it was an uncomfortable stretch for us. We paid just over half a million for a 70 year old time capsule of a home on a small lot, in a great location.

I mean, it's great that we are in and all, but, what do we do from here? We could sell and clear 300k right now... But then what? Buy in at a million for an equally shitty house elsewhere? We will eventually out grow this house and I'm not sure what our options will be at that point.

The one plus side of this market has been a good, steady income for myself.

My comment was more meant to say that the fundamentals of RE demand here are pretty strong. Location, location, location. Victoria used to be a sleepy town for retirees only. It is no longer that town, and it is priced accordingly.

Vancouver is in a whole other stratosphere of unaffordability, but that is largely due to criminal elements and money laundering.

Its totally a tale of luck and 1 generation getting in just in the nick of time. I'm almost 40 and its super sad for my friends/coworkers in their 20's that want to get into the market.


My wife and I sold 3 places (we did awesome selling a crappy tear down in white rock for WAY more than we bought) before we bought our place in Fort Langley 7 years ago. It was like 500k for a 70's tear-down - the land alone is worth more than a million now. We lived there for 5 years then tore it down and built a new house 2 years ago. I would never be able to afford my house/land now - not even close.
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Re: Canadian Recession [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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Fucking Canucks.

Your best job data since they started tracking the data 40 years ago and nary a peep.

There's hope yet.

God Save the Queen
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Re: Canadian Recession [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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I saw that a few hours ago. We aren't the types to brag; it's poor form.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Canadian Recession [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
I saw that a few hours ago. We aren't the types to brag; it's poor form.

Not quite bragging territory yet.
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Re: Canadian Recession [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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windywave wrote:
BLeP wrote:
I saw that a few hours ago. We aren't the types to brag; it's poor form.


Not quite bragging territory yet.

God save the Queen of Tuvalu.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Canadian Recession [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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Canada added 106,500 jobs in April, the most ever created in a month since Statistics Canada started tracking jobs back in 1976.

Since I've read right here on ST that the jobs created is due to Trump in the U.S., all I can say is thanks Trudeau.

It sure doesn't feel like a recession to me...
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Re: Canadian Recession [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Like I said before - I work in estimating for a civil construction company. Our Bid List is still huge - so I think its slowing down quite yet in Vancouver.

Plus everyone is SUPER happy right now because its finally summer and we are out of the rain/snow/etc....
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Re: Canadian Recession [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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windywave wrote:
BLeP wrote:
I saw that a few hours ago. We aren't the types to brag; it's poor form.


Not quite bragging territory yet.

Lost 7,000 jobs in March
Gained 105,000 jobs in April.

That doesn't feel right to me.
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Re: Canadian Recession [Ringmaster] [ In reply to ]
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Ringmaster wrote:
windywave wrote:
BLeP wrote:
I saw that a few hours ago. We aren't the types to brag; it's poor form.


Not quite bragging territory yet.


Lost 7,000 jobs in March
Gained 105,000 jobs in April.

That doesn't feel right to me.

Sounds like typical seasonal numbers.

Doesn't Canada close for the winter?


"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."
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Re: Canadian Recession [Ringmaster] [ In reply to ]
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Ringmaster wrote:
windywave wrote:
BLeP wrote:
I saw that a few hours ago. We aren't the types to brag; it's poor form.


Not quite bragging territory yet.


Lost 7,000 jobs in March
Gained 105,000 jobs in April.

That doesn't feel right to me.


To put things in perspective, if you adjusted for the size of the Canadian economy/labor force that would be like a +1,000,000 print in the U.S. Analyst consensus for Canada was for +12,000 jobs. That's literally the largest deviation from expectations I've ever seen for employment or... just about any macro data point.

Doesn't change my fundamental outlook on Canada.

Edit to add: watch what the Bank of Canada does with interest rates. If they don't raise interest rates with a jobs number like that it should tell you what they think of the Canadian economy's dependency on housing prices.
Last edited by: GreenPlease: May 10, 19 15:13
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Re: Canadian Recession [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
Ringmaster wrote:
windywave wrote:
BLeP wrote:
I saw that a few hours ago. We aren't the types to brag; it's poor form.


Not quite bragging territory yet.


Lost 7,000 jobs in March
Gained 105,000 jobs in April.

That doesn't feel right to me.


To put things in perspective, if you adjusted for the size of the Canadian economy/labor force that would be like a +1,000,000 print in the U.S. Analyst consensus for Canada was for +12,000 jobs. That's literally the largest deviation from expectations I've ever seen for employment or... just about any macro data point.

Doesn't change my fundamental outlook on Canada.

Edit to add: watch what the Bank of Canada does with interest rates. If they don't raise interest rates with a jobs number like that it should tell you what they think of the Canadian economy's dependency on housing prices.


I'll have to watch that.

But really, all that matters to me at the moment is that I was one of those 106,500.
Last edited by: Ringmaster: May 10, 19 21:31
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Re: Canadian Recession [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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A bit of an update,

Re real estate and foreign money (umm laundering):

https://vancouversun.com/...estate-prices-report

For reference here is the full report, about 100 pages deals with real estate, the rest with horse racing and luxury vehicles.

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/...estigation-1.4416100

Maurice
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Re: Canadian Recession [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting. Here in the U.S. the most popular vehicles for laundering money are things like restaurants, dry cleaners, car washes, etc. where you can "stuff the register" to book fake sales. In the U.S. it would be far more difficult to use RE to launder money.

If I were a recent B.C. homebuyer I would be concerned (among other things) that I'd bought at an inflated price due to the money laundering (because obviously, at some point, that artificial demand will end).
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