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PSA: problems with enve and certain tires ?
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Yikes.

While this is certainly not anywhere near being resolved (and the conflict between enve and the tire companies does not sound super amicable), for athletes on enve wheels, I think that this might be worth knowing:

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/...-enve-issues-warning

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Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Mar 18, 19 10:41
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Re: PSA: problems with enve and certain tires ? [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Yikes.

While this is certainly not anywhere near being resolved (and the conflict between enve and the tire companies does not sound super amicable), for athletes on enve wheels, I think that this might be worth knowing:

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/...-enve-issues-warning

See this thread from last week.
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Re: PSA: problems with enve and certain tires ? [HandHeartCrown] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah I saw that.

But this is an interesting development with the tire companies disputing the issue.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

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Re: PSA: problems with enve and certain tires ? [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
But this is an interesting development with the tire companies disputing the issue.

And... they are probably right.
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Re: PSA: problems with enve and certain tires ? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
But this is an interesting development with the tire companies disputing the issue.


And... they are probably right.

or they actually knew there was potential issue... as in the case of the CorsaSpeed TLR had a design update prior to all the Enve custerF and for this issue according to the review in the rolling resistance site.
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Re: PSA: problems with enve and certain tires ? [spntrxi] [ In reply to ]
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Link?

Oddly Enve specifically states that the CS TLR was and is fine...
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Re: PSA: problems with enve and certain tires ? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
But this is an interesting development with the tire companies disputing the issue.


And... they are probably right.

More like confirming the issue, but disputing the root cause. I agree that so far Challenge and Vittoria appear more credible than Enve.
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Re: PSA: problems with enve and certain tires ? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Link?

Oddly Enve specifically states that the CS TLR was and is fine...

because it had a design update likely prior to Enve's testing...

google is your friend.. it's the rolling resistance site like I said.. I remember reading it
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Re: PSA: problems with enve and certain tires ? [spntrxi] [ In reply to ]
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You mean here, where he raves about how good it is and gives it a 5/5 rating? https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/...ria-corsa-speed-2016


This is what Enve had to say:
Based on reports from the field that tires with cotton, silk, or other natu ral fiber sidewalls with open tubular style of construction were degrading quicker than expected, we launched a study to understand the validity and p revalence of these claims. As a result of this investigation, we confirmed that tires using natural sidewall materials with an open tubular type const ruction, are not fit for use with ENVE carbon rims.

The first failure is best defined as a cut or wearing through of the natura l fibers on the sidewall of the tire at or near the rim hook bead . Once cut through, the tube extrudes through the tear and bursts, often un seating the tire from the rim resulting in sudden loss of control and a cra sh. The cutting of the sidewall is the result of soft fibers (the cotton or similar textile) being abraded by the harder edge of the rim during the ro tational compression cycles of wheel and tire. The second failure mode is that of the tire itself stretching off the rim. This is can be caused by a variety of factors, among them, low bead stiffne ss, varying tire diameters, over inflation, or some combo of the three. The tires most susceptible to this failure are those with a handmade open tubular type construction. Given the large selection of tires on the market that deliver excellent performance with reliability, it is o ur recommendation that ENVE customers should not pair these tires with their ENVE wheelsets.

Vittoria Corsa Non-Tubeless (Not ALL Vittoria Tires)This ti re features cotton sidewalls in black, para (tan), and anthracite (gray). T his tire has been described to us by Vittoria as a race day only type of ti re and that it is not recommended for training or prolonged use. This tire has been the main offender for cut sidewalls. While this one tire is not re commended for use with ENVE wheels, Vittoria Rubino model tires a nd the tubeless ready Corsa Speed have proven safe and reliable in our test ing.




Last edited by: rruff: Mar 18, 19 14:50
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Re: PSA: problems with enve and certain tires ? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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yes that review... you need to read it near the end... they mention an update from Vittoria and why it was updated.. sounds familiar to me... as in what Enve is saying. So if the corsaspeeds where not updated they might be part of Enve's bad list.
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Re: PSA: problems with enve and certain tires ? [spntrxi] [ In reply to ]
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You mean this?

"It has taken a long time for this tire to arrive, but the final version of the Vittoria Corsa Speed Open TLR truly is the fastest road bike tire in the world.

When unpacking this tire and seeing the gray coating on the inside of the casing and sidewalls, I feared this would result in a much higher rolling resistance. The truth is, rolling resistance of the Corsa Speed is insanely low. On top of that, and thanks to the new coating, puncture resistance and the capability to hold air when used in a tubeless set up will be much better."
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Re: PSA: problems with enve and certain tires ? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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you saw vittoria's reply, yes?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: PSA: problems with enve and certain tires ? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I read the link above.
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Re: PSA: problems with enve and certain tires ? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
I read the link above.

i guess that means no. here it is:

Vittoria's Official Reply To Enve's Claim


Salem, MA - On, or about March 6, 2019 ENVE Composite wheels issued a “Consumer Safety Bulletin” raising safety concerns regarding the use of open tubular (aka clincher) style tires on ENVE’s composite fiber rims. Specifically, in that bulletin, ENVE states that their comments were based upon their own study and investigation, without providing details regarding the protocols used or parameters followed in such study, and without including any independent third-party collaboration. That Bulletin then specifically recommended against using certain specific brand/tire models, including Vittoria’s Open Corsa (non tubular) tires, with ENVE’s carbon fiber clincher rim. A basis of the risk associated with that recommendation is explained as a failure “best defined as a cut or wearing through of the natural fibers on the sidewall of the tire at or near the rim’s hook bead.” In response, Vittoria has requested from ENVE the specific findings of their investigation, and is awaiting ENVE’s response.

Meanwhile, Vittoria notes that it has sold millions of Open Corsa tires since that tire model was first introduced in 1996. In many of those years the Open Corsa has been rated top of class in various forums and reviews. The tire has been run and raced on both steel, aluminum, and carbon fiber wheelsets, including our own, throughout the world with no previously reported consistent failures.

With that in mind, each wheel manufacturer has the ability to design and deliver a product that may pose different stresses on our tires. In that regard, it makes intuitive sense that any wheels manufactured with sharper than average edges at the bead where that wheel’s rim makes contact with our tires may very well see faster deterioration of the tire’s sidewall at that point of contact. Such excessively sharp edges can result from design thus affecting an entire model of wheel, from anomalies in the manufacturing process thus affecting a number of wheels manufactured during a production run, or from a failure to observe a manufacturing defect or damage to a single rim. We generally see such issues residing with the wheel manufacturer, rather than with our tires. We also believe that to the extent such issues exist, they often pose similar risks regardless of the brand of performance tire used.

In any event, cyclist safety has always been a top priority for all of us at Vittoria and so we take ENVE’s Bulletin very seriously as we continually focus on delivering tires meeting the most exacting quality and performance standards. We also encourage every rider to regularly inspect their rims for safety, paying particularly close attention to the edge of the wheel’s rim where it makes contact with the tire.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: PSA: problems with enve and certain tires ? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Challenge's response is even more detailed (and fairly savage, if true):


Consumer Product Safety Bulletin
(technical clarification, following ENVE’s Consumer Safety Bulletin of March 6th, 2019)


This bulletin is to reconfirm that Challenge Tires should not be used with any rims or wheels that do not comply with either the current 2019 ETRTO, past ETRTO or soon to be released ISO 5775 global standards for tire and wheel fit.

Challenge specifically clarifies herewith, that both old and new ETRTO and future ISO standards require a minimum 0.7mm rounded radius on all hooked rims.

It has come to Challenge’s attention that ENVE SES model carbon wheels do not comply with the above standards on the design of the rounded hooked rim radius. In fact, ENVE’s SES have two sharp (<0.2mm) radii in their hooks, that leave two parallel cuts about 0.5mm apart, around the entire radius of our (and other company’s) tires, at around 3-4mm above the bead.

Challenge has noted failures of its clincher tires, communicated by consumers and athletes, caused by the sharp edges on the ENVE SES hooks. This international design standard violation has been communicated back to the affected consumers, shops, endorsed teams, ENVE and their parent company, as Challenge has been made aware of problems. ENVE, however, continues to produce and promote usage of the said SES models, as part of their line.

Challenge has consequently been forced to list the specific ENVE SES rims as not compatible with any Challenge clincher tire models, on the website. Challenge asks that consumers do not mount ENVE SES wheels with any model of Challenge clincher tire whatsoever.

Failure to follow this warning could cause the ENVE SES wheel to cut Challenge’s quality casings resulting in explosive air loss from the tire and/or inner tube, potentially causing a crash and injury to the rider.

This bulletin also aims at providing the technical clarification, that only a precisely defined 622.0mm+-0.5mm bead seat diameter, specifically defined wall height and center channel, as described in the new above standards, will safely and easily allow proper tire and rim fit and function. Challenge has regularly been attending standards meetings and being involved for the past three years in confronting the market’s accelerated changes, such as the implementation of progressively wider rims, carbon fiber clinchers rims and tubeless and tubeless ready tire technologies. Challenge has invested time, knowledge and energy together with other elite bicycle industry companies to address and update tire & wheel fit issues with the ETRTO and ISO.



Challenge handmade tires have been produced for close to 20 years using the same handmade processes that have been proven over the past 50 years at the highest levels of racing without significant failures - if the rims and wheels comply with internationally accepted design standards. And this applies for both aluminum and carbon fiber rims.

Regarding carbon fiber rims, there had also been other periodic problems in the past with some carbon rims that had cut our (and other tire manufacturers’) tire casings just above the beads. These tire cuts were however normally caused by less than optimal QC at the factory, resulting in quality issues of improper finishing at the tire hook during production. Normally roughness at the hook was due to failure to completely remove resin flashings created while molding the rim. Proper finishing leaves the required 0.7mm min. radiused rim hook smooth, without roughness, thus eliminating a potential tire failure.

In the above cases, Challenge has routinely and successfully worked with the wheel suppliers (including ENVE) to fix the problems or replace these wheels to the consumer. However, specifically with ENVE’s SES model wheels, it is the first time that Challenge has known of a rim hook design that does not meet the above recognized design criteria, reason for which Challenge feels compelled to follow up with the release of this informative bulletin to protect its customers.
Last edited by: trail: Mar 18, 19 16:01
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Re: PSA: problems with enve and certain tires ? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
You mean this?

"It has taken a long time for this tire to arrive, but the final version of the Vittoria Corsa Speed Open TLR truly is the fastest road bike tire in the world.

When unpacking this tire and seeing the gray coating on the inside of the casing and sidewalls, I feared this would result in a much higher rolling resistance. The truth is, rolling resistance of the Corsa Speed is insanely low. On top of that, and thanks to the new coating, puncture resistance and the capability to hold air when used in a tubeless set up will be much better."



seriously... you didn't see this

UPDATE: Vittoria has provided some extra info about the updated version of the Corsa Speed Open TLR. The exact update was the addition of an additional chafer (safety Nylon band) to the bead section of the tire.
This additional chafer was added to make the tire compatible with full-carbon tubeless and tubeless-ready rims. They figured out the carbon wheels have a sharper finish than alloy rims and could potentially cut the tire; the added nylon chafer solves this problem. They also confirmed the natural rubber based coating helps to seal the tire.


This means Vittoria knew about the potential risk probably before Enve's statement... dont ya think ?
As for challenge... real cheeky expecting rims manufactured before the 2019 standard even existed to meet the requirements. Really...
I think all have some blame in this or at least in how it was handled/mishandled..
Last edited by: spntrxi: Mar 18, 19 16:26
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Re: PSA: problems with enve and certain tires ? [spntrxi] [ In reply to ]
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spntrxi wrote:

As for challenge... real cheeky expecting rims manufactured before the 2019 standard even existed to meet the requirements. Really...
.


Challenge consistently referred to conformance to either the current or past standard, not just the 2019 standard both of which have the same value for minimum radius.
Last edited by: trail: Mar 18, 19 16:55
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Re: PSA: problems with enve and certain tires ? [spntrxi] [ In reply to ]
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No I didn't see it. That is near the top of the review page, not at the end where you said to look. Thanks for posting it.

That "update" was before the tire was even released, 3 years ago. It is interesting that they didn't bother to change any of the other tires which have the same casing.
Last edited by: rruff: Mar 18, 19 17:04
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Re: PSA: problems with enve and certain tires ? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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sorry.. I'd didn't scroll any lower... and thought it was the end :)

it certainly adds a little fuel.. like why not update others?.. they surely where aware at this point.
Last edited by: spntrxi: Mar 18, 19 17:33
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Re: PSA: problems with enve and certain tires ? [spntrxi] [ In reply to ]
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spntrxi wrote:
they surely where aware at this point.

Aware of what?
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Re: PSA: problems with enve and certain tires ? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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In my experience the cotton casing tires cut the easiest but I’ve also seen at least one Continental Gran Prix 4000 SII cut on an Enve rim. I don’t sell a lot of ENVE wheels but when I do I check the rim for this sharp edge and if it’s noticeably sharp I take some sandpaper and knock down the raised edge.
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Re: PSA: problems with enve and certain tires ? [Chris B.O.B.] [ In reply to ]
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Enve having a few issues in the MTB department too -: https://www.pinkbike.com/...-m735e-wheelset.html
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Re: PSA: problems with enve and certain tires ? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
spntrxi wrote:

they surely where aware at this point.


Aware of what?

read the UPDATE paragraph.. and you shall know
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