I believe when referring to the ROT post VII he was talking about the most recent troubles and the present issues the church is suffering. The RC church has had many many historically bad times, but that happens to an organization that has been around 2000 yrs. I agree with him, this recent one really accelerated with VII.

My view is different. The clergy has been celibate for almost 900 years. Therefore it is likely that the specific sin of predation has been going on since that time; and was easier to get away with the further back you go, so maybe even worse than it has been in our lifetimes.

You'll find significantly more child molestation occurs within families than at the hands of priests. You should also be able to trust family members more than priests.

So if we're going to burn down the churches and stop priests being near kids, we better also stop people having children in general, because they're at greater risk from their own family.

I thought the same thing. Don't think I have ever met a catholic who is not Christian... really not even sure how that is possible, but eh it religion, everyone even the atheist get all weird about it.

I am what you call a cradle Catholic. Baptized as a baby, religion class on Wednesday nights growing up through elementary school, Confirmation in 8th grade. I continued going to church through college off and on, married a Non-Catholic but we had a Catholic Ceremony because I'm Catholic so that's what you do. We adopted two children and Catholic Social Services was the agency that helped us.

As a child I didn't feel I had choices - everyone was Catholic. That was all I knew.

As a young woman I did not pay attention to the sexual abuse scandals and research on my own. I buried my head and went to church but it was always hanging over my head as a Catholic. I felt shame being a Catholic after the scandals of 2003 but in Church we would hear "it's not easy being a Catholic Christian. It's not supposed to be easy" etc. I told myself I was being faithful, that I wasn't the bad guy. I prayed for the church. I really had no idea the extent of the abuse because like I said I didn't read any of the reports myself.

Adopting my children through Catholic Social Services I felt that I owed it to the church to raise the kids Catholic. No one ever suggested this to me, it was a feeling I created in myself. I saw the good the church/branches of the church can do and the kind, generous spirit of those working behind the scenes. That was enough.

The last 8-10 years since becoming a mom I have had the hardest time. I noticed I was not comfortable leaving my own kids for religion class (the way I grew up). I volunteered to teach for a while and eventually I just quit sending them. Issues that are more specific to our local church weighed heavy on my mind as just being wrong. A few examples - during the last election a retired priest gave a sermon trying to influence voters by stating that we should vote our "Catholic Conscience" or we are committing a sin and can not take communion until we go to confession. Another incident, A well liked priest was discovered to be having a relationship with a woman. He was forced to leave the priesthood and the Bishop wrote a shaming letter to all the local parishes that was read aloud during mass. It contained more details than I needed to know and there was no forgiveness in the letter, no hope and prayers for his well being. The whole time I'm thinking he gets shamed yet all these child molesters nothing is said?

The last 2 years I have seriously struggled. I told myself that I like my church family - the people I go to mass with. That I will probably never like every single thing from every church but at least as a family we have a place to go.

When the Pennsylvania Grand Jury reports came out I didn't bury my head anymore. I read the report. I was/am disgusted and revolted. I went to church the Sunday after I read the report praying for guidance and looking for signs, words, prayers, anything. That Sunday happened to be the church's planned campaign for a new building. The Bishops recorded speech to address the Grand Jury report was pushed aside to talk about how much money we should plan to give to the building fund. No prayers were said for victims of abuse. The next Sunday I went by myself to listen to the recorded speech. Our priest played the recording and did not say another word about it. Again no prayers for victims of abuse which to me translates as not taking any ownership, not showing remorse, ignoring it. It's someone else's problem but it's like our local parishes don't realize that we all carry the shame.

Personally I can't ignore it anymore and I can no longer call myself devout but that is an explanation of how I could deal with that stuff for so long.

Its a piece of wood (I assume its a wood table), it carries not energy or vibe or conversations with it. Relax.

Not condoning it at all. But if you’re going to throw mud throw it at all the perpetrators, not just the ones that suit your narrative.

Pretty simple concept.

This just happened. Yeah, the Church will be able to sort itself out.

"Cardinals Raymond Burke, from the US, and Walter Brandmüller, from Germany, reject that the cases of abuse are a result of "clericalism" - a group of men abusing their power, and protecting each other.
The cardinals belong to the traditionalist wing of the Church, where many believe homosexuality is a root cause of the clerical abuse, and are both outspoken critics of Pope Francis.
"The plague of the homosexual agenda has been spread within the Church, promoted by organized networks and protected by a climate of complicity and a conspiracy of silence," they said."

Catholics by and large are following a man-made doctrine. In Catholicism it's all about the church (the building). Christianity is supposed to be about Jesus and the church - his followers. A good percentage of Catholics aren't Christians. They're just blind followers of a religion. Any Christian Catholic should be disgusted by the RC "church" and seek out a church whose mission is to further their relationship with God. Otherwise they're just devout Catholics.

So not really an answer to your question, as I'm curious how they rationalize this away as well.

Huh, let's see if we can uncover a couple examples of bad behavior before the 20th century (and I'm not gonna bother with things that happened to individuals like Tyndale, Jeanne d'Arc & Galileo):

• The Crusades - 1 million + Muslims & Jews killed
• The Spanish (and other) Inquisitions - thousands
• Papal Bull Summis desiderante affectibus - Middle Ages witch hunts - tens of thousands
• Papal Bull Dum Diversis - granted the freedom to search out, capture and reduce unbelievers to perpetual servitude; pretty much the green flag for the wholesale enslavement of Africa and the Americas

These were Church-sponsored actions. Tens of millions of non-Europeans died at the hands of European colonizers, but not necessarily at the direction of the Church. Of course, they never spoke out against it, either.


Is this the hardness you pine for?

Because homosexuality and pedophilia are one in the same, right? And the "homosexual agenda" also supports pedophilia and rape/assault of nuns? Man, that is one nasty cabal they have going there.

1) I believe you should never judge a religion by it's abuse.
2) I think it's possible for someone to be a good Christian and a bad Roman Catholic.

When asking the questions "What does it take to follow Jesus Christ?" and "What does it take to be a good Catholic?" you'll see some overlap, however you'll see some very substantial distinctions and deviations. If someone were to pick up the Bible and read it cover to cover a few times I do not believe it is possible to come away with the belief that the RC church is Christs intention.

1.) There's no quote that says homosexuality and pedophilia are one in the same. I don't think that is a leap that needs to be made here.
2.) The "homosexual agenda" described by Burke would simultaneously give cover to other types of sexual deviancy (as described by the Church). All sorts of things can go on under climates of complicity and conspiracies of silence.

klehner wrote:

Because homosexuality and pedophilia are one in the same, right? And the "homosexual agenda" also supports pedophilia and rape/assault of nuns? Man, that is one nasty cabal they have going there.

Homosexuality and pedophilia are not the same but there are connections. Doing research to identify a cause for gay and trans issues, outside of normal development, is career suicide.

In research with 942 nonclinical adult participants, gay men and lesbian women reported a significantly higher rate of childhood molestation than did heterosexual men and women. Forty-six percent of the homosexual men in contrast to 7% of the heterosexual men reported homosexual molestation. Twenty-two percent of lesbian women in contrast to 1% of heterosexual women reported homosexual molestation.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11501300

Link to full article

I am what you call a cradle Catholic. Baptized as a baby, religion class on Wednesday nights growing up through elementary school, Confirmation in 8th grade. I continued going to church through college off and on, married a Non-Catholic but we had a Catholic Ceremony because I'm Catholic so that's what you do. We adopted two children and Catholic Social Services was the agency that helped us.

As a child I didn't feel I had choices - everyone was Catholic. That was all I knew.

As a young woman I did not pay attention to the sexual abuse scandals and research on my own. I buried my head and went to church but it was always hanging over my head as a Catholic. I felt shame being a Catholic after the scandals of 2003 but in Church we would hear "it's not easy being a Catholic Christian. It's not supposed to be easy" etc. I told myself I was being faithful, that I wasn't the bad guy. I prayed for the church. I really had no idea the extent of the abuse because like I said I didn't read any of the reports myself.

Adopting my children through Catholic Social Services I felt that I owed it to the church to raise the kids Catholic. No one ever suggested this to me, it was a feeling I created in myself. I saw the good the church/branches of the church can do and the kind, generous spirit of those working behind the scenes. That was enough.

The last 8-10 years since becoming a mom I have had the hardest time. I noticed I was not comfortable leaving my own kids for religion class (the way I grew up). I volunteered to teach for a while and eventually I just quit sending them. Issues that are more specific to our local church weighed heavy on my mind as just being wrong. A few examples - during the last election a retired priest gave a sermon trying to influence voters by stating that we should vote our "Catholic Conscience" or we are committing a sin and can not take communion until we go to confession. Another incident, A well liked priest was discovered to be having a relationship with a woman. He was forced to leave the priesthood and the Bishop wrote a shaming letter to all the local parishes that was read aloud during mass. It contained more details than I needed to know and there was no forgiveness in the letter, no hope and prayers for his well being. The whole time I'm thinking he gets shamed yet all these child molesters nothing is said?

The last 2 years I have seriously struggled. I told myself that I like my church family - the people I go to mass with. That I will probably never like every single thing from every church but at least as a family we have a place to go.

When the Pennsylvania Grand Jury reports came out I didn't bury my head anymore. I read the report. I was/am disgusted and revolted. I went to church the Sunday after I read the report praying for guidance and looking for signs, words, prayers, anything. That Sunday happened to be the church's planned campaign for a new building. The Bishops recorded speech to address the Grand Jury report was pushed aside to talk about how much money we should plan to give to the building fund. No prayers were said for victims of abuse. The next Sunday I went by myself to listen to the recorded speech. Our priest played the recording and did not say another word about it. Again no prayers for victims of abuse which to me translates as not taking any ownership, not showing remorse, ignoring it. It's someone else's problem but it's like our local parishes don't realize that we all carry the shame.

Personally I can't ignore it anymore and I can no longer call myself devout but that is an explanation of how I could deal with that stuff for so long.

My experience and situation is a lot like yours. I have struggled with the Vatican's response to this as well, and it has alienated me a bit. My kids go to our parish school, and while I believe they are safe there (as there is little or no direct clergy involvement), I can't say that I would ever now be comfortable with them alone or in a small group in a setting run by any clergy. I will say that, unlike your visit to church that Sunday, lately my parish has made this a topic of discussion, it is the first prayer of the faithful, and last week a priest I know well and admire broke down in tears talking about the pain he has felt for the victims and his struggle with forgiveness. It was moving, to me at least.

But to the OP's question, I have tried to separate belief from the Church, if that makes any sense. I can still have faith, yet question the actions of the Church. I don't think that is inconsistent. Maybe that doesn't make me a true Catholic.

Did you read that article? It says that gay men and lesbians were more likely to have *been* molested as children, not that gay men and lesbians were more likely to have *committed* molestation of children. Am I missing something here?