Change it up and do R/B bricks if that’s all the time you have. While it is likely helping your bikes by always going first running off the bike that much probaly limits the ability to become efficient and improve just w “base” runs.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Hadn't thought of that - good idea to change it up a bit.

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Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
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I did this last year during the 100/100 run thing. That was the only way I could fit it in and still swim. I would pretty much follow every bike workout with an easy 30min run. I think the overall increase in run volume helped not necessarily the "brick" aspect of it.

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What's your CdA?

run first most every time

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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I had to write it down...do I have this right?

Mon: Bike-60
Tue: BikeRace-90/Run-30
Wed: Run-60, swim
Thu: BikeRace-90/Run-30
Fri: Run-60
Sat: BikeRace-180/Run-30
Sun: OFF

I agree with the idea of moving the run upfront. As strong as you appear to be on the bike, I'd be tempted to put the run first on two of the three.

Are you training for something specific?

I'd also be tempted to make Tue or Thu a long run, like you suggested.

Mon: Bike-60
Tue: Run-30/BikeRace-90
Wed: Run-60, swim
Thu: Run-90/BikeEasy-30 (maybe work to extend this to be all running....over time?)
Fri: Run-60
Sat: BikeRace-180/Run-30
Sun: OFF

...OR...

Mon: Bike-60
Tue: BikeRace-90/Run-30
Wed: Run-60, swim
Thu: Run-90/BikeEasy-30 (maybe work to extend this to be all running....over time?)
Fri: Run-60
Sat: Run-30/BikeRace-180
Sun: OFF


I think there's a balance to strike between choosing Tuesday or Saturday to do a reverse brick. I'm not sure which bike leaves your legs more "fried" (90m race, or 180m ride with race in middle). I'd assume the Saturday ride does. In which case, I'd think about doing the run first on Saturday, and a regular brick on Tuesday. Basically, do whatever to make sure you are running on fresher legs.

I failed to mention Sunday - generally an hour swim and a 13-16 mile run. My 'off' days are Mon and Friday, which are at a very easy intensity. Currently I'm at around 12-13 hrs a week on this schedule.

Wednesday run is currently a tempo run - right now I'm doing a 2 mile build warmup and then around 6 miles at slightly slower than open half marathon pace followed by an easy mile.

Focus for the year is IM Norway at the end of June. I'll build up to a 3.5-4.5 hr weekly long ride on Sat and to around 2 hours on the Sunday run. I'm around 8 hours or so M-F and with some bigger weekends should be around 16 or so hours for the week. I plan to take a few mid-week days off in May and June to get in some 5 hour rides. With my life and the schedule I currently have it's hard to get in real long rides on Saturday - as it is I get up around 3 am to fit in a long bike/run to be done before I need to be Dad for the weekend.

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Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
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Ah. Ok. So, the whole week is:

Mon: BikeEasy-60
Tue: BikeRace-90/Run-30
Wed: RunTempo-60, swim-60
Thu: BikeRace-90/Run-30
Fri: RunEasy-60
Sat: BikeRace-180/Run-30
Sun: swim-60, LongRun-90+

Run: 30+60+30+60+30+90=4hr (looks like a 40 mpw BarryP style week)
Bike: 60+90+90+180=7hr
Swim: 60+60=2hr

So, no need for another long run each week.

I would definately flip Tue and Thu. ie, run first. I guess I'd also question the combined load of that Tue-Thu block. Race-tempo-Race...seems like a "lot", but maybe your body handles it ok. That would be a tough block for me, and I would need to space them apart somehow.

ETA: Just a note: I'm just another self-coached athlete. And I don't do IM, I only go up to Oly Dist. However, my weeks aren't much different from yours, in season. I'm currently running 40+mpw. I swim a little more (4-6x) and bike a little less (3x).

Thanks, Tom. I'll give one of the Tues or Th a changeup with a run first to see how things go.

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Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023

Nice summary of the week, Tom.


So, I'm not sure if your question is really 'Are these 3 Brick workouts worth it?' or 'How do I best manage my limited time?'
All of the fastest racers in my TriClub end every bike with a run. Only some of the runs are truly 'Off the bike' with pace. I'm a believer that doing that type of running, with fatigue in your legs on a regular basis is worth it, providing you can handle it. So, in answer to the question, IMO, yes it's worth it.


But, unless you can conjure up some time, that IM will still be a challenge.

For IM training though, there are lots of other boxes to check off-including optimal distances for LR, LB; optimal amount of intensity and total amounts of S/B/R. You have conquered the 70.3 distances already (*Congratulations)


I'd be most worried about having enough run volume to support the M during IM. That is where you will make it or break down. There has been a push to replace volume with intensity lately, for better or worse. Most people need to have enough jarring of the body's bones/muscles/connective tissues to withstand the longer distance race.

Kropelnicki says critical volume for the run in triathlon is a peak of 2-3 weeks at 7/3 the race distance=60 mpw!. I do like that thinking, even though there is much more to it and many can get away with less (especially if there is a big run base over the years).

There's been debate on ST (I remember reading that thread many years ago-you posted too) about him.
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...urability_P3933269-2

I've read many of his articles.
http://kropelnicki.com/critical-volume-again/

I've done open run M training on 55+ mpw and on ~25 mpw-and for me, the race always went better on higher volume. The M of IM is an even more fickle beast and the distance must be respected. Any good 70.3 athlete can ride 112 miles, but to race that distance and race the M...well, I think you need to really put the focus on the R training.


Just something to think about...and figure out how to squeeze more time out of a day...(and avoid the BR during the run)
I am so routing for you!!

Dale, thanks for the insights!

With this basic schedule (7-9 hours during the work week) and eventually 7-8 on the weekend (once I start building the long ride and run) I should be around 9-10 hrs/week of biking and 5-6 hrs of running. I’ll be lucky to get in 10k yards in a week of swimming (2-3 hrs), but that put me in an ok position at LP last year.

I could substitute a bit more running in, and it will probably happen during a few weeks (April vacation week will only have biking on a hotel bike in a gym and probably 8+ hours of running). I feel confident that I can get a good result on this volume if I listen to my body and stay injury free.

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Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023

I'm similar to you. M-F I either run/bike, bike/run or run/swim. Don't be afraid to run to warmup for a zwift race. No you won't be as strong as you would be with a proper bike warmup, but it changes things up. The important thing is to be consistent for the long hall. Don't sweat the little details during the week. Focus on key workouts over the weekend and have fun.

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Ed Alyanak

What Eric said about running first. You can also add an easy mile after the post run bike to increase the run mileage.....7-8 minutes longer won't materially change your day, but adding an extra 3 miles of a bunch of 1 mile transition runs will add mileage, but also help mobility after hammering in a TT position and open up your hips etc after being in a squatted/cramped TT position.

Why put the run first?

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Neo-pro triathlete

https://www.instagram.com/nicolaiwium/

Because your trying to become as efficient as possible and running on "dead" legs really doesn't make you become a better runner. You become a better runner by running with best form and using the least amount of energy. You want to become faster with a lower HR and so you run first so your not dead nor getting lazy.

If you can do that off every bike run, more power to you...just not many can actually accomplish that.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Rule ZERO in forum rules, "ALWAYS RUN ON THE FRESHEST LEGS YOU CAN".....so when not racing, its ideal that its the first workout of the day. In racing, since you don't have the choice, pace the swim and bike to have the freshest legs possible.

The reason for this, is that the fresher the legs, the more biomechnically sound your running will be, meaning less injuries and better quality run training. You can swim and bike on trashed legs in a non weight bearing environment.

Well, coach, I respectfully disagree, as there are many ways to train for the run...

It's more than just being efficient. If you can't maintain that efficiency late into the race, then you'll be doing the IM shuffle. And why does that occur? Many reasons, but volume is one of them. And if the overall run volume is higher because you added in a bunch of run miles as 'bricks', then that is much better than not doing it.

I do agree that there must be some run training on less tired legs with a focus on race pace and tempo. That training makes IM run pace seem so much easier, especially after the long bike. But it is just one piece of the puzzle...

Faster with a lower HR is all about cardiac training (*of this, I know more than a little) but IM run training includes leg training, and high run volume accomplishes this goal.

I worked Mike Doane for a while (Potts coach) and he had me do a bike/run 7 days a week and a swim 6 days a week. We started off with usually a 90min bike and 30min run each day, and worked up to ~ 2.5 hour bike followed by a 45min run with one longer bike/run a week, up to 75-90min of running and 6 days of ~ 6k of swimming. I raced well. Bricks weren't treated as race simulation, but morso to keep the HR up for a longer period of time and break the day into two clear workouts. It was great for being time efficient. While I'm not longer using the plan, I have nothing against it and found it effective.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

We can agree to disagree but I think we are saying similiar things.

I also would think a time strapped athlete will get more overall benefit by having less “off the bike” runs than by including more of them- IE running and then biking. But if your saying you should always run off the bike and it works for you, great.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

No. I said all the top athletes in my tri club run after almost every bike, and I usually do it, myself, especially when it's warm outside. And I'm not looking to argue with you. As you said, we are more in agreement than not.

And I do agree that not all runs should happen after the bike, but I think you can pad your run volume by just getting into the habit of doing a run after any bike, if feasible. That is not what I call a run 'off the bike' as that implies some intensity in that type of brick run.


What I said is that run cardiac training is not the same as run leg training-and on this we appear to disagree. Low HR is a sign of overall efficiency, which does not come from any specific workout, but the cumulative effect of all the workouts. Switching up the order doesn't really matter as long as the volume gets done. I think the important runs (*with intensity) should be done prior to any other training.

And I do agree that not all runs should happen after the bike, but I think you can pad your run volume by just getting into the habit of doing a run after any bike, if feasible.

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I call this "sneaky fitness". But then again I'm not trying to "pad" run volume with off the bike workouts, I build it with much better consistent runs in the week or do reverse bricks- run/bike. But your system seems to work for you and your club of athletes, my system seems to work for my athletes. And I'm sure X method works for other athletes.


ETA: Yes we will agree to disagree on the last part. Especially if you are saying it's just a matter of getting the volume in, regardless of order. Imo there are more efficient ways to do things, but that's where we'll agree to disagree at; but also say yes there are many methods to the madness.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

My 2 cents for time strapped.....three-four runs per week before biking later in the day (bike could be right after). Two or three short runs per week off the bike for volume padding. Time efficiency wise cutting a bit down by 10-15 min and adding 20-25 min means only 10-15 min longer overall workout, but you end up with 10-15km extra run volume per week and hardly affect any bike training load (lots of the bike training load is low impact from a time stapped person's perspective)

Why put the run first?

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The bike can affect the quality of the run. The run rarely affects the quality of the bike.

That said, if your scheduled run is just some easy mileage, then don't obsess over which is first. Also, running easy off the bike is not really a 'brick' IMO. If your run is a workout, then do the run first to ensure it's a quality workout.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

this really is a reply to all - very useful and insightful info