No

Yes. Group rides for me in 2018 = 0. In 2017, 1. Previously, dozens, mostly every good weather weekend. But my bike club starts 30-40 min from my house (by car). Load up. Drive. Arrive with spare time to set up and compensate for traffic. Ride. Pack up. Drive home. Unpack. Pretty exhausting relative to riding the trainer at home. Saves 2 hr, easily. I'm already at the door of the 🐕 house with Mrs. giorgitd wrt training. Getting 2 hr per week back? Priceless.

Race out side all the time. Love taking indoor fitness the bunch tough talkers.

These are the people who ride fast bunches but don't take turns. The fast guys outside are fast inside.

Some comment about quality as they apply to me.

1. Highest quality rides, uphill outdoor hillclimb. Enough cooling due to moving my body through air and no need to worry much about keeping power to pedals while navigating
2. Second highest quality, on trainer intervals or TT. Can keep pressure on the pedals, and no need to worry about navigation
3. Seemingly lowest quality is outdoor flat to rolling TT. Hard to keep wattage consistently high, need to avoid cracks and other pavement items at high speed, while trying to hold the most optimal aero shape I can hold for duration of the TT

On the surface the third one "seems" like the lowest quality, but quality in the real world is measured on the clock, not the power number. So by the time we get to real world racing practicing workout number 3 may in fact be the highest quality workout, because it puts together all aspects of riding....keeping power up, staying aero and navigating. I have a rolling TT course that I try to do once per week that is ~21 min with an 8 min climb in the middle. It offers best of all worlds. I try to measure my final time and my wattage (try to keep equipment the same). Obviously conditions can change a bit, but its interesting putting it all together. But it's hit and miss in terms of consitently keeping the watts high. When I do indoor TT's I can pretty well predict to +/- 2W. For the outdoor TT, its more lilke +/- 7-8W (meaning a range of 14-16W). When I ride indoors I can really get close to the same watts all the time. I see the advantage physiologically, but that's only one piece of riding a bike fast in the real world.


I know I adopted power based indoor riding before some friends did and I resorted to quality indoor rides and skipped riding with them for many of the reasons you guys mention. Now most of those guys have gone to indoor virtual. I might be able to join some of them again by doing the same!

I've wondered this too, Dev.

Upon further review, ask this question to cyclists and not triathletes and I bet you get a completely different view of things. Cyclists don't seem to have the inherent fear of the road that triathletes do. Triathletes bring a lot of it on themselves through poor bike handling skills and general lack of awareness, often brought about by their propensity to train too often indoors. It's a vicious circle/cycle.

I think eventually it will even itself out and zwifty zwifters will disappear as they realize their actual goals aren't being attained. For the average MOPer, it will remain zwiftacular for them. For cyclists it will continue to be an activity for the days where the conditions are worst.

But either way eventually you have to solve the problem of shitty bike handling skills and lack of actual outdoor experience. It's all well and good until you take the wrong guy out.

Having a wonky power meter or calibrating it to read high (cheating) in the past had no impact on anyone else. Riders and their wonky power numbers were in isolation. That's now no longer the case. In-game speed/segment times are based on weight (an honesty system) and accurate power (where do I start....). This is what I see as the biggest hurdle of the much hyped "eSport" side of things. It's hard enough to get people on a bike hurting like hell 'for entertainment'... throw in how easy it is to cheat the system with current hardware... convincing others it's legit is going to be tough.

---

Shane Miller - GPLama
YouTube | Web | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook | Strava

 
I personally prefer group over solo.... it's alot harder to not finish your interval in a group than by yourself at home.

That been say, as soon as you need specificity, group stuff doesn't work so well.

Also, the price point of Zwift make it really hard for the group to compete... especially when they try to increase their rates.


So yes, i think Zwift is killing indoor group training... which is unfortunate because it's how people get started over here... which make me question the long term viability of the sport

Indoor training and solo run training are much more effective for training. But I find after all the years I'd rather be training with others for social benefit and outdoors is better for my soul than indoors. A trainerroad set can shred me in an hour, but does not make me as happy as a 2 hour group ride outside. And I have the good fortune of having a nearby power-based spin class with good, hard classes. Then I get the best of all worlds, a good w/o and people to be with.

That said, maybe I'm just old.

---

Brian
“Eat and Drink, spin the legs and you’re going to effin push (today).” A Howe

No way bro.. you're not "just old". Sitting and pedaling stationary is a workout. Riding your bike is an outdoor activity, period. Zwift, TR, whatever.. it's not riding your bike. If you aren't riding outdoors (in the good weather) you're doing it wrong. There's a time and place to sit on a trainer. But if you want to develop actual skill you gotta be outdoors.

There are plenty of people who ride a lot indoors who are good riders outside.

There are plenty riders especially in the middle and lower categories who think they are good and carry on like twats

This is also the upside of another virtual thing - Strava segments. There are virtual race courses all over the place now where you can "race" against others and see how you stack up. You don't need to shut down roads or pay entry fees and can go when it's convenient and safe for you. There are many people for whom Strava segments really upped their training game. It's also the first case of AR (augmented reality) instead of VR that many people have ever used and don't even know it.

That's just a personality thing. Extroverts feel the need to be around others to get "recharged" and feel good. Introverts get exhausted being around others and need to be alone to "recharge" and feel good. If you like going to a stadium to watch a football game or a concert, you're an extrovert. If that is your worst nightmare and you would rather watch it from home on tv, you're an introvert. Same dynamics apply to group rides.

Extroverts tend to live longer because being around other people will lead to them noticing medical conditions in you and telling you the best places to get help sooner. That's why married men live longer than unmarried - their wives making them go to the doctor. That being said, I'm an introvert and all y'all are being too loud and need to get the f*ck outta my yard. Harrumph (slams door).

But those good riders didn't get good riding indoors. As I said there's a time and place for indoor training - it is very beneficial.

But speaking of carrying on like twats...

What's the point of riding a bike if you don't ride outside. That like drinking decaf and nothing else.

There are still massive groups all over the Atlanta area. I usually go northwest to the Bud Plant or to Sosebee Bike Park that are within 4 miles of each other. At either place in good weather you may see several triathlon clubs and cycling clubs roll out with many cyclists. As well as, many like myself that will roll out with a handful of close cycling friends (avoid big groups now) or head out solo most of the time. And that is just one side of Atlanta. I can imagine there are other big groups around the metro area.

My best training for fitness is done in a controlled environment indoors in structured setting. With traffic stops and other things I find it harder to accomplish the same level of specific training. The outdoor rides offer long routes and confidence in handling that cannot be achieved inside. An example is a long span of time training inside and then going back to familiar courses and find myself sitting up from aero in T-intersections or tight turns, whereas, when training outside I will blast through those in aero. It only takes a few rides though to get this confidence back.

flame if you want, but I will admit that I don't understand tri groups on tri bikes in large numbers. I've seen 30+ in a tri club roll out. With my fitting I cannot be in a group with my tri bike or else I have to sit up the entire ride. It is a terrible bike to be on in a group setting.

When I go with friends I take my road bike and when the group gets bigger than 10 people it just seems to turn into a mess. My post ride data from those rides are nothing more than crap and they usually turn out to be annoying because of the variety of crazed personalities. Riding with maybe 5 friends +/- is a sweet spot. Some training can be had and good memories too. But I am totally content on a solo 100 mile training ride as well.

For me personally I don't think virtual training will impact the social in person training I normally do. It is, now that I've got a smart trainer, zwift account etc. more enjoyable to do the indoor thing but once it gets warm outside that's where I'll be. I live in an area where there a plenty of group rides where I can "ride" to the ride or not have to drive more than 15 minutes. It will vary based on the type of athlete also. Indoors is very good for structured workouts. Outdoor group rides not so much unless the group all has the same workout.

flame if you want, but I will admit that I don't understand tri groups on tri bikes in large numbers. I've seen 30+ in a tri club roll out. With my fitting I cannot be in a group with my tri bike or else I have to sit up the entire ride. It is a terrible bike to be on in a group setting.

--------

Our tri shop has a group ride that's 85% triathletes (on tri bikes) and 15% roadies. The A group which is as fast as you want to ride does a rotating paceline and everyone stays in their aerobars. Now almost all of these guys are very experienced athletes, and when someone gets "squirly" they usually hear about it in a nice way. If I had to guess they likely have 1 crash a year in that group that is from the rotating paceline itself, not something external to the ride like a car/pothole etc.

The B group in that ride has usually half the people sitting up on the tri bikes and the other more experienced half just stay in aero the whole time. Now the B group rides much more "cautious", they usually have a little more room between each other etc.

I use this weekly ride as a workout for most of my athletes and I'm personally one of those "no aerobars in paceline" rule mindset, but it's the shops ride and so I just have them adapt. Of the 2 that ride the A group, one sits in aero all time is one of the "leaders" of that ride (he only has a tri bike), my other guy will only ride his road bike (for the simple reason of safety), and it's a little harder ride so he gets that benefit.

I usually live by the no aerobars in pack, but I've come to the realization that most of the time in tight quarters simply sitting up and getting air brakes can solve most issues. Again is it 100% crash proof, no it's not. And do I "like" it, eh but I love the benefit of that balls to the wall for 1 hour effort that they get each week from the ride. So that benefit outweighs the potential crash that happens every so often. ETA: And yes I know that they are "drafting" to gain that advantage, but the ride is so fast that it's an effort to stay in the paceline in that ride. So that's the goal, not looking for an "easy" way to get pulled around- we use it as a way to push ourselves in a safe on the road enviornment. I can look at the power files and know when they worked and when they "sat in" and we'll talk about it. I'll even know beforehand sometimes they'll be fatigued so I'll instruct them just to sit in today, etc. Or feeling fresh so stay in paceline as long as possible, etc.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Those are good stats and I am sure the big groups that I see also have similar results because I have not heard of any serious crashes in those groups. I must also admit that when I roll past these big groups that start in mass, tend to spread out over the span of miles into smaller clusters. These clubs usually stay on the marked courses as well so it allows them to spread apart as the various fitness levels start to spread them apart.

I don't Zwift; may be in the minority but would much rather ride outside; for me, it's partially social, and partially because at some point, the tri industry will not eek the next $1000 out of me to do what's free, and in my geography, relatively safe outside. Understand completely those that ride inside for convenience, time, safety or other.

And you heard it here first: bike handling will likely be the biggest victim of the smart trainer / indoor revolution. Lots of folks training indoor will develop big motors and have no clue / faded memories of how and where to turn a bike, deal with traffic, railroad tracks, potholes, ped x-ings / white lines, other riders. Coaches, here's your opportunity to offer bike handling practice / clinics - everyone will need to learn / refresh before racing.

---

------------------

- I do all my own stunts

I think the title of the thread should read: “is virtual training going to kill cycling handling skills entirely?”

In fairness to the points raised around handling and skill. I can beat people on zwift who beat me easily on the crit track.

They handle and have better race craft. Maybe its not one or the other, use indoors to get bigger engine, ride outdoors and get skills

I have a dumb trainer so all indoor training is solo. I rode my road/tri bike outside about 5 times all year. 3 solo, 2 group. No races. Group rides rarely work out with my schedule and are very time inefficient.

Gravel bike-all solo

Mtn Bike- which makes up the majority of my outdoor riding is usually solo from my house with approximately 5 rides per summer with my best buddy where we drive to the trail.

Being primarily a Mtn biker now my bike handling skills are well above average.

---

Formerly DrD