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Re: What the actual f*%k? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
ACE wrote:
iron_mike wrote:
ACE wrote:


Should we as a society sanction the termination of "potential life" for the sake of convenience?


well, for what other reasons? by whose definitions? again, i think as long as abortion is legal, the motivations or reasons for having them should be nobody's business. start trying to draw lines about 'viability' or 'convenience' or true intent or whatever else, and you're entering into a morass that's unsolvable and, more importantly, inconsistent and unnecessary.


Other reasons could be:

1. deformity of the child, severe abnormalities,
2. To save the life of the mother.


Rape? Incest? Physical, mental, economic, social, health effects on the woman? You going to draw up the list, and force the woman and her medical team to meet your requirements? What about those things you didn't think of? The woman is going to have to go to court to fight it out?

Again: you are saying that you are taking away the woman's authority over her own body, by forcing her to let her pregnancy go to term. You gonna lock her up, maybe shackle her to the prison cell bed?

All of your dramatic rhetoric to the side, if you come the conclusion the "potential life" inside the mother has a value and has to be protected, then yes, it is a balancing test as to when she can terminate "potential life". The government tells us when and why we can terminate people and this is no different if you conclude the "potential life" is more than a bunch of cells. If you do not, then sure, go ahead and terminate it right up to the delivery date.
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Re: What the actual f*%k? [ACE] [ In reply to ]
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ACE wrote:
iron_mike wrote:
ACE wrote:


Should we as a society sanction the termination of "potential life" for the sake of convenience?


well, for what other reasons? by whose definitions? again, i think as long as abortion is legal, the motivations or reasons for having them should be nobody's business. start trying to draw lines about 'viability' or 'convenience' or true intent or whatever else, and you're entering into a morass that's unsolvable and, more importantly, inconsistent and unnecessary.


Other reasons could be:

1. deformity of the child, severe abnormalities,
2. To save the life of the mother.

well, these are reasonable on their face, but demand a bunch more questions:

-define deformity, or severe, or 'abnormality.' is downs syndrome a severe? albinism? autism? deafness? should these definitions be different in different cultures?

-how do we know when the life of the mother is at risk? is this probabilistic or certain? do we quantify that probability? is abortion justified in the case of a 50% chance of the mother dying? 49%? 1%?

and most importantly, who do we trust to make these decisions?

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: What the actual f*%k? [ACE] [ In reply to ]
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ACE wrote:
All of your dramatic rhetoric to the side, if you come the conclusion the "potential life" inside the mother has a value and has to be protected, then yes, it is a balancing test as to when she can terminate "potential life". The government tells us when and why we can terminate people and this is no different if you conclude the "potential life" is more than a bunch of cells. If you do not, then sure, go ahead and terminate it right up to the delivery date.

I guess you just won't address the question of whether you are willing to remove or let society remove from the woman her right to determine what to do with her body. I do wonder why that is, though. You seem to not want to discuss the real world consequences of your position.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: What the actual f*%k? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
ACE wrote:

All of your dramatic rhetoric to the side, if you come the conclusion the "potential life" inside the mother has a value and has to be protected, then yes, it is a balancing test as to when she can terminate "potential life". The government tells us when and why we can terminate people and this is no different if you conclude the "potential life" is more than a bunch of cells. If you do not, then sure, go ahead and terminate it right up to the delivery date.


I guess you just won't address the question of whether you are willing to remove or let society remove from the woman her right to determine what to do with her body. I do wonder why that is, though. You seem to not want to discuss the real world consequences of your position.

I guess you were unable to read what you quoted. I will type it again "if you come to the conclusion the "potential life" inside the mother has a value and has be protected, then yes, it is a balancing test as to when she can terminate "potential life"." In case you can't understand that it means...no, a women cannot decide to terminate the "potential life" in her body at her whim.
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Re: What the actual f*%k? [ACE] [ In reply to ]
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ACE wrote:
Slowman wrote:
ACE wrote:
Slowman wrote:
ACE wrote:
Our society, whether or good or bad, has determined animals ( dogs, the best and most loved domestic animals, sorry cat lovers) are not as valuable as humans.


our society has also determined that zygotes are not as valuable as fully formed people. so, we're good here?


As its stands right now, I guess so. But arguments are made to change things all the time. Added that is doesn't have to be equivalent. We can protect the fully formed person to a greater degree than the potential human and at the same time protecting the potential human.

Why should we as a society sanction terminating "potential life" (potential life being defined as will be a fully conscious human under normal circumstances) for the sake of convenience?


see, that's the problem in civil society. you think your imperatives rank higher than mine.

in my opinion, the only way to run a republic is to treat governance as if there is no god. that way, no one 's god is favored. i think god wants you to run your religious life that way too(and, generally, you do). god created the physical world to adhere to the rules of physics he created. he, not you, determines when to interrupt this for a miracle. we can't assume a miraculous world. we must assume the physical world, and it's up to him to break into your regularly scheduled programming for a miracle. if that's how he's ordained us to live as christians, how much more so in a secular govt.

if the potential for life = life, and this theory is to be embedded into statute (which is what i think you'd prefer) then by definition you must treat the 9 puppies inside your dog as if they are all fully formed dogs. murder 9 dogs, go to jail. you're right, you won't go to jail as long as you would if you murdered 9 humans, but go to jail you will, today (no, it's not simply a civil offense) if a video of you were produced showing you traveling around murdering innocent dogs.

you make an assumption when quickening occurs. your assumption is that it's at the point the sperm fertilizes the egg; or, at the point the fertilized egg implants in the uterus. i don't mind you making that assumption. i just would prefer that your view - which may be wiser than mine - is respected; and that my view is likewise respected. that our views are equally respected. that your view of what's important is not higher than mine.


Not sure where your point on religion or god got pulled into this but so be it.

Arguments are made all the time to influence people and therefore change laws and regulations based upon the votes of the society or general acceptance of the community. that is my view of how you should govern. If you appeal to a moral higher authority, I would agree there is no way to tell who's moral higher authority is correct or should be more respected. Hence you can't legislate based upon same.

I would like to see potential life treated with greater respect and protection than is afforded today and would argue for same. I do not think we should sanction the termination of potential life for convenience.

You refer to respecting your views a lot and so far, I don't recall disrespecting it. I can respect a view I disagree with and I understand you can do the same.

i agree with you that the argument for "fetal potential" can be simply bioethical and not religious. however, so far in my life's journey, if found a 100 percent co-incidence between those making the fetal potential argument and christianity, i.e., i have not yet come across an atheist making a fetal potential argument. this tells me that christians may be taking a strategic tack of couching a religious argument in a secular bioethics debate, making this a theocratic effort disguised as something else. maybe you're the first atheist advocating for fetal potential that i've come across. (bravo.)

i agree that the notion of "potential" ought not to be discarded cavalierly. i agree with you - entirely! whether in dogs or humans! - that we should not "sanction the termination of potential life for convenience," if by "sanction" you mean "encourage". where you and i might part ways is that i think we should spend our efforts preventing pregnancies likely bound for termination, rather than making into criminals those who terminate them.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: What the actual f*%k? [ACE] [ In reply to ]
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ACE wrote:
klehner wrote:
ACE wrote:

All of your dramatic rhetoric to the side, if you come the conclusion the "potential life" inside the mother has a value and has to be protected, then yes, it is a balancing test as to when she can terminate "potential life". The government tells us when and why we can terminate people and this is no different if you conclude the "potential life" is more than a bunch of cells. If you do not, then sure, go ahead and terminate it right up to the delivery date.


I guess you just won't address the question of whether you are willing to remove or let society remove from the woman her right to determine what to do with her body. I do wonder why that is, though. You seem to not want to discuss the real world consequences of your position.


I guess you were unable to read what you quoted. I will type it again "if you come to the conclusion the "potential life" inside the mother has a value and has be protected, then yes, it is a balancing test as to when she can terminate "potential life"." In case you can't understand that it means...no, a women cannot decide to terminate the "potential life" in her body at her whim.

That's a bit more clear, and you are at least admitting that you don't think the woman has agency over her own body. Who decides when that pregnancy can be terminated? How is that enforced? Murder charges? Forced hospitalization and shackles? That's not being dramatic: it's acknowledging the issues with your position.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: What the actual f*%k? [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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j p o wrote:
Is this actually realistic though? People pretty much lose their brains when it comes to sex. Think about how many people that truly believe in god and his commandments yet still engage in adultery. They are literally willing to spend an eternity in torment in exchange for mediocre sex.

But you and I could come to an agreement on abortion. My bright line is around coordinated bilateral brain activity, which comes around 22 - 23 weeks. We are fine pulling the plug on a fully realized adult human without coordinated brain activity, we recognize that they no longer have the things that make them a person. A fetus prior to this point is in much the same situation as they have not yet gained the things that make them a person.

If it would settle the argument once and for all (hard to type that with a straight face) I am more than comfortable drawing the line at 18 - 20 weeks, possibly a little earlier. It allows for plenty of time to find out you are pregnant and make an informed decision.

But neither side wants to settle the question, too much money to bring in arguing over it. And neither side is willing to give and inch because they rightly assume the other side will not stop there.

I think you and I could have a real discussion about the issue.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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