tri4funInVegas wrote:
Do you have some studies backing up the idea that max HR decreasing with increased fitness?
I think this is not true as elite athletes still have very high HR when competing. I can't find too many quotes of maximum heart rate of elite athletes but googling around shows Lance Armstrong in 2005 to have a max of 201 when his resting was 30 at age 34.
I'm sure you're more efficient with increased training but how fast your heart can beat seems like it should be going up with increased fitness eg it has the ability to beat faster AND harder.
Getting faster is obviously the goal but the question is how to get there. I want to feel that I'm gasping for air (Eg hit my cardio limit) vs my legs giving out (tired legs). Higher cadence on the bike seems to indicate this is the way to go to get your heart rate up for the same wattage but in theory you should be able to hold the wattage longer if you rely on your heart as the limiting factor instead of your legs.
First: After further thought from your initial post, it could be you have different "max's" or ranges for indoor vs. outdoor activities, which could be due to motivational qualities of the indoor group workout (may be some adrenaline influence there), exercise type (if not cycling), overall cycling mechanics of indoor vs. outdoor, etc. Indoor cycling is resistive in nature, where you have resistance for the full 360 degree turn of the pedal, instead of benefiting from free-spinning wheels and gravity on a road bike. Generally it's a lot easier to get your HR up for indoor cycling and group workouts...
Second, to answer your reply question: Great questions. First, Lance is a good example of having a high max and low resting HR, but without having his data from before becoming a top-end (however dirty it was) cyclist, we can't make any relative assumptions about his max HR history. I personally have Vo2 max data showing my max as 210 (with vo2 63.5 ml/kg), then two years later with my max at 202 but a higher Vo2 (72.7 ml/kg; both @ 68kg body weight):
There is enough data that's been around for many years on the subject of max heart rate, enough that if you pick up any exercise physiology book, it will have it in there (and probably not on the first 5 pages of your search on goooogle). Just pulling some off my book shelf both my Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning (NSCA, Beachle and Earle), third edition and my Physiology of Sport and Exercise (Wilmore, Costill, Kennedy) have the same conclusions on the subject. It's worth noting that as an amateur, you may only see a five maybe ten point drop after many years of training. So, thats not going to fully explain what might be going on with your HR. Also, ask yourself: if your heart needs to pump slower at rest, why would it need to pump faster at maximum if it pumps more blood per beat?:
There is a little confusion on your marriage of the cardiovascular system (heart rate), muscular system and power with respect to cycling. First, in cycling you turn a lever with a specified range of motion, as you increase your cadence the force required to turn the pedal is reduced (this is illustrated by a chart called a force-velocity curve).
This leads to Muscles 101: fast twitch (inaccurately called anaerobic, but requires little oxygen to produce force) muscles are high force/high power, but fatigue more easily as a result. Slow twitch muscles are low force (relative to fast), and wont fatigue as much. The important part is,
both systems rely on the aerobic system to clear metabolic waste, which is why we breath heavy after a tough sprint. So in order to max your heart you still have to push hard through a relatively longer effort (8-20 minutes) to max your cardiovascular system and, subsequently, your heart. My best Vo2 max test progressed from slow and low, to faster and upwards, finishing at 5.5 mph on a 17.5% grade, at the 21 minute mark!
Part of finding your max aerobic effort is building into a max effort gradually for a little longer, rather that right off the bat to ensure you are fully using your aerobic system. So, turning the pedals faster (remember, lower force) makes you less prone to
muscular fatigue. If you are to turn something with the
same force at the faster cadence, then the result is more power. Thats where you go faster. On the other hand, for example, if you are turning the same number of watts at 50rpm (higher force), and then at 90rpm (lower force), your speed will probably stay the same (because its the same number of watts...), but used different muscular systems (fast v. slow) to turn the pedals.This makes muscular fatigue the limiter, not your cardiovascular system/heart per se. Basically, you gotta push the watts at the edge of your slow twitch muscle limits (which you find through a test) for long sets to get more watts.
**In the interest of the question at hand, not as advice or recommendation of any kind*
To bring it all together, to get someone to possibly max their HR for example I would have them build a ride to VO2 max wattage interval zone for 5-20 minutes depending on their fitness. Another example would be a good 2-3 mile climb at 7-8% grade would do it, if you honestly left everything out there. Reaching a true max is very hard. *
Cadence on the bike is fundamentally different from running; There is little to no eccentric loading (lengthening of the muscle during contraction) in cycling, plus we are dealing with torque (cycling) and whole host of other differences like elastic energy storage (run). Running we rely a lot more on our mechanics, balance, range of motion and musculoskeletal system to absorb and transfer energy to rhythmically hit the ground repeatedly with our feet. For more on running cadence, see my
reply in a previous post, which summarizes multiple studies on the subject of running cadence.
Hope this helps.
Cheers!
Matt Leu, M.S. Kinesiology
San Pedro Fit Works, Los Angeles, CA
Endurance Athlete and Coach
Consistency/time=results