So you're not giving any kudos to Tracey for the couple of years' work with Ian before the Athens Olympics? Just curious.
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Re: Is Lionel Geting A Coach? Stop all other Lionel Threads [Alan Couzens]
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Re: Is Lionel Geting A Coach? Stop all other Lionel Threads [devashish_paul]
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devashish_paul wrote:
bjorn wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Bjorn if we use the pro sports team analogy, you have a head coach and assistant coaches for various disciplines along with medical and psychology related staff. Head coach coordinates it all. Assistant coaches work inside head coach's system. It works...but it works as long as Lionel is not being head coach of the team of Lionel Sanders. He should have stopped right there in Boulder and gotten Dave Scott of Craig Alexander. I don't think he would listen to anyone who is not better than himself. I THINK he would listen to Sebi or Jan once they retire and are not racing for the Kona win themselves.
Thoughts?
Dev
.for some reason there is this personality type who won't make themselves subservient to someone who they see as being inferior as a practitioner of their own domain vs someone who is a great teacher/coach/leader in the same domain. Lionel strikes me as the type of guy who will need someone better than him in something to follow that. .
So the 'spin' on this is that Lionel needs to realise that he is their inferior as a practitioner..... as a practitioner of how to put it all together and produce the best performance (see Alan Couzens great post about the swim coach, the whiteboard and the 5,000 times rinse and repeat).
When Lionel realises that you don't need to outperform on the pitch to be the best coach in the stands he'll be onto a winning system.
Re: Is Lionel Geting A Coach? Stop all other Lionel Threads [Alan Couzens]
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Alan Couzens wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
Alan Couzens wrote:
I will add that one of the most interesting differences I've observed in transitioning from working with elite swimmers to elite (Ironman) triathletes is the level of control some athletes expect/want to have over the program. Even at a world class level in the swim world (squads with Olympic Gold medalists, multiple World Record holders), the coach writes the program and the athlete does the program. Period. When it gets written on the whiteboard, it's a prescription, not a negotiation.
Can you imagine swimmers huddled around the whiteboard - "Coach I appreciate your advice but I'm gonna go with my gut on this one and do 15 instead of 20 x 100's today" & the guy next to him "This feels like a 12 x 100 day for me." Does. Not. Happen. This isn't to say that the athlete doesn't give feedback (both verbal and visual) - "Coach, I feel like crap today" - but ultimately it is agreed/understood that it will be the coach who makes the final call of whether the athlete keeps pushing on despite the feedback or whether the session gets amended (equally true when the athlete feels good and wants to do more).
Due to the inherent subjectivity (/ego of World Class athletes) involved, when the roles get muddied and the athlete starts making these calls, things go awry. Ian Thorpe's move away from Doug Frost to 'do things his way' would be a prime example.
There is a reason swim coaches tend to look like swim coaches - taking on the role of 'calling the shots' is a stressful job! That 'head chef hat' is a heavy one! 😊 For Lionel's sake, I hope he revisits his initial post-race conclusions, is able to put his own ego aside, and comes to this realization that he is *not* the guy in the best position to be wearing the head chef hat sooner rather than later as I truly am a fan of the guy.
Great points Alan. Even Phelps did whatever Bowman said, though I've heard there were a few "discussions" along the way. By and large though, Bowman wrote the workouts on the white board and MP did the work. It's pretty simple really. :)
Thanks Eric,
I'd have to agree that Bowman - Phelps dynamic is a common (almost necessary?) thread in the legendary Gold Medal 'dynasties' in the swim world.
Bowman -> Phelps
Frost -> Thorpe
Touretski -> Popov
Carew -> Perkins
Not a lot of 'advising' going on in those relationships based on what I've seen
But honestly, apart from the odd bit of friction, not a lot of conversation needed. It's kind of inspiring to see how 'work-like' those environments/relationships become, at that level. Coach rocks up, puts the plan on the whiteboard and explains the session. Athlete looks at the program, dives in and executes it. Rinse and repeat about 5,000 times. As you said, quite simple really.
IME, things tend to go pretty smoothly when everyone knows (& sticks to) their best role in the mission.
this is certainly best way.
at the same time
those people were in the pool since they were about 4 and were used to that way and also had built a long time relation and trust over the years
i dont htink phelps in his later years would have allowed a new coach to take that much controll or would have sacked the coach after a bust up.
when you come to the sport later or after a break like lionel people develop a different mind set
Farris as an older athlete entering the sport was self coached ( with a swim coach he saw when in munich which i am prety sure was the same coach when he started swimming with at the age of 15 ( i cant quite rember when he started to swim )
craig alexander had advisor team .
So i guess the reality is somebody stubborn like lionel that has won many races on his own is not going to follow your coach athelte realtionship
at the same time farris would be the first to admit that in the later stages he should have worked with a coach to mix the training up.
Re: Is Lionel Geting A Coach? Stop all other Lionel Threads [Diabolo]
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In my opinion, no. I think that transition had a negative effect on his swimming.
The downhill slide began when he moved to his more 'advisor-like' relationship with Tracey and you'll see this reflected in Ian's times.
A very similar story to this thread. With Tracey he made some bad decisions (that, in his mind, were good decisions) that Doug simply would not have allowed.
Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com
The downhill slide began when he moved to his more 'advisor-like' relationship with Tracey and you'll see this reflected in Ian's times.
A very similar story to this thread. With Tracey he made some bad decisions (that, in his mind, were good decisions) that Doug simply would not have allowed.
Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com
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Alan Couzens: Nov 5, 18 9:16
Re: Is Lionel Geting A Coach? Stop all other Lionel Threads [tuckandgo]
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tuckandgo wrote:
you don't need to outperform on the pitch to be the best coach in the standsI'm fairly certain if Doug had ever fallen in, he would have drowned 😊 Slight exaggeration but you get my point. The same could be said for many, if not most of the greatest swim coaches in the history of the sport.
Bottom line: Being a great coach and being a great athlete require very different skill-sets/mind-sets and it's exceedingly rare for one person to possess both in equal measure
Mr (Joe) King was another great example. Could not swim. Period. And yet, produced some of the greatest swimmers in Aussie history.
It is not coincidental that (despite being able to swim circles around him) everyone called him *Mr.* King. From 8 year olds to 30 something year old multiple gold medalist Mum's like Lisa Curry-Kenny. This level of respect (dare I say, deference) is very common, maybe even integral, to these winning relationships.
Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com
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Alan Couzens: Nov 5, 18 13:46
Re: Is Lionel Geting A Coach? Stop all other Lionel Threads [Alan Couzens]
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In someway Roy is right.
Re: Is Lionel Geting A Coach? Stop all other Lionel Threads [Livio Livius]
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In a lot of ways.
Not sure (from a pure physiological perspective) I'd recommend 6 mo off(!) but I see some definite merit in the rest of his points.
Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com
Not sure (from a pure physiological perspective) I'd recommend 6 mo off(!) but I see some definite merit in the rest of his points.
Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com
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Alan Couzens: Nov 5, 18 14:35
Re: Is Lionel Geting A Coach? Stop all other Lionel Threads [Alan Couzens]
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Def one of the best responses/observations .. very well said
I got to work with Doug and Ian and Bob and Michael and others listed here in my time at the US OTC in the springs.
Having specifically worked with these groups prior to Sydney while coaching with both resident programs.
There was never a negotiation about a workout. From the triathletes or the swimmers.
Thanks for sharing!
Enjoy TN
daved
http://www.theundergroundcoach.com
I got to work with Doug and Ian and Bob and Michael and others listed here in my time at the US OTC in the springs.
Having specifically worked with these groups prior to Sydney while coaching with both resident programs.
There was never a negotiation about a workout. From the triathletes or the swimmers.
Thanks for sharing!
Enjoy TN
daved
http://www.theundergroundcoach.com
Re: Is Lionel Geting A Coach? Stop all other Lionel Threads [daved]
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Did anyone catch his Instagram post about working on running mechanics, and who is the "coach/advisor" that's in the picture with him? Just curious
Re: Is Lionel Geting A Coach? Stop all other Lionel Threads [Tri_Joeri]
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Tri_Joeri wrote:
Did anyone catch his Instagram post about working on running mechanics, and who is the "coach/advisor" that's in the picture with him? Just curiousplease post link for those that don't have IG
Re: Is Lionel Geting A Coach? Stop all other Lionel Threads [ScottC-M]
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ScottC-M wrote:
Tri_Joeri wrote:
Did anyone catch his Instagram post about working on running mechanics, and who is the "coach/advisor" that's in the picture with him? Just curiousplease post link for those that don't have IG
Here you go sir: https://www.instagram.com/...;igshid=yrix7i2qg230
Second pic shows someone observing his stride.
Re: Is Lionel Geting A Coach? Stop all other Lionel Threads [Livio Livius]
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Livio Livius wrote:
In someway Roy is right.
Wow, thanks for the link!! That video was really good - is he a well known coach?
I really liked the end where he said ( he talks as if talking to Lionel one-to-one)
"Your approach is based on 'if I suffer the most I will win' - this is not correct"
He really hit the nail on the head there, imho.
Re: Is Lionel Geting A Coach? Stop all other Lionel Threads [bluefever]
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I love how direct and honest germanic people are.
Being from latin america, It's very weird at first.
Once I incorporated some of this in my way of communicate, I've had to deal with lot of overreaction.
But sometimes there is no better way to say something. Just be st8 fwd!
Very nice
Also, wtf is the "nobody" guy?
Being from latin america, It's very weird at first.
Once I incorporated some of this in my way of communicate, I've had to deal with lot of overreaction.
But sometimes there is no better way to say something. Just be st8 fwd!
Very nice
Also, wtf is the "nobody" guy?
Re: Is Lionel Geting A Coach? Stop all other Lionel Threads [Alan Couzens]
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Nothing will change. After Kona I was hopeful based on his first interview but now he's already walking those comments back. Saying he just needs advisers.......
Re: Is Lionel Geting A Coach? Stop all other Lionel Threads [Fishbum]
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Fishbum wrote:
Nothing will change. After Kona I was hopeful based on his first interview but now he's already walking those comments back. Saying he just needs advisers.......I hope I'm wrong, but I have the same impression as you.
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Re: Is Lionel Geting A Coach? Stop all other Lionel Threads [Livio Livius]
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“(Lionel) is not a professional”.
Right in more ways than one. Direct, constructive.
Thanks for the share,
Scott
Right in more ways than one. Direct, constructive.
Thanks for the share,
Scott
Re: Is Lionel Geting A Coach? Stop all other Lionel Threads [moosh009]
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moosh009 wrote:
Fishbum wrote:
Nothing will change. After Kona I was hopeful based on his first interview but now he's already walking those comments back. Saying he just needs advisers.......I hope I'm wrong, but I have the same impression as you.
Re: Is Lionel Geting A Coach? Stop all other Lionel Threads [Thorax]
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So...Lionel and Wurf are golfing right after 70.3 La Quinta Indian Wells...
Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
Re: Is Lionel Geting A Coach? Stop all other Lionel Threads [Tri Bread]
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New video...sigh.
He's is still sounding like same old same old.....
He's is still sounding like same old same old.....
Re: Is Lionel Geting A Coach? Stop all other Lionel Threads [Fishbum]
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Fishbum wrote:
New video...sigh. He's is still sounding like same old same old.....
In the next video after your remark, he states that he won't and can't question his coach , do you still feel its the same old Lionel or does it seem like he is maturing a bit more?
Re: Is Lionel Geting A Coach? Stop all other Lionel Threads [ScottC-M]
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ScottC-M wrote:
Fishbum wrote:
New video...sigh. He's is still sounding like same old same old.....
In the next video after your remark, he states that he won't and can't question his coach , do you still feel its the same old Lionel or does it seem like he is maturing a bit more?
Yes I did see that. I've kind of come around on these videos and I think I've become a little closet Sanders fan 🤔
As for the comment about him maturing far be it for me to passed judgement on someone's maturity LOL.
I don't think maturity is his issue as much as the personality that runs hand-in-hand with addiction.I know on another thread someone made a very valid point that addicts always feel like they have everything under control.
He's scared to not be in control hopefully he realizes though at this point letting himself dictate things and run the show wasn't working. At least not this past year.