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Non-aero bike in draft-legal race?
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I'm planning my 2019 expenses and have a question...

One of my A races is going to be the sprint duathlon worlds. This is a DL race. My current road bike is a lowly Cannondale CAAD12 outfitted with Flo 60s. My experience from racing worlds this year (on an even less aero bike :-P) is that my foot speed in the first run means I'm in T1 shortly after the big rush (i.e. 60th percentile or something like that) and that a short, hard effort gets me into a nice little draft pack. I didn't spend any time alone, except for a brief moment where I thought about an escape.

So, thinking ahead, and assuming the skills distribution is roughly the same as last year: I'm not the fastest runner, and I'm a stronger biker than most of the guys in the pack I was in. This resulted in me towing a bunch of stronger runners to T2, who then cheerfully proceeded to drop me in the 2.5km drag race home. I saw this coming, and therefore that attempted escape. In hindsight I should have gone for it, but I got cold feet. Now, for me to beat those guys that would mean I do have to drop the pack at some point, and spend some time alone in the wind. Not a lot of time; probably 3-4km or so.

My question now is what would a more aero bike (looking at a Canyon Aeroad for example) save me over the CAAD12? Would it be worth shelving other update plans (rear disk and maybe eTap for the P4)? Or is it just a matter of going down the pain cave just a little bit deeper? I like my CAAD12, but, yeah, n+1...

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
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Re: Non-aero bike in draft-legal race? [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
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My experience with draft legal sprints is that the best breakaway machine is a time trial frame fitted with dropbars and itu-legal (aka "Mini") clip ons. Rehinaldo Colucci in his ITU days used to bridge some serious gaps on the bike with a "roadie" Cèrvelo P3. I use a 1st generation Cannondale Slice for this purpose and it works very well. My advice is not to use a full integrated (superbike) time trial frame. Deep wheels also help, as well as a aero road helmet (such as the Specy Evade)
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Re: Non-aero bike in draft-legal race? [jollyroger88] [ In reply to ]
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jollyroger88 wrote:
My experience with draft legal sprints is that the best breakaway machine is a time trial frame fitted with dropbars and itu-legal (aka "Mini") clip ons. Rehinaldo Colucci in his ITU days used to bridge some serious gaps on the bike with a "roadie" Cèrvelo P3. I use a 1st generation Cannondale Slice for this purpose and it works very well. My advice is not to use a full integrated (superbike) time trial frame. Deep wheels also help, as well as a aero road helmet (such as the Specy Evade)

Hrm. Interesting. There was a guy last year I met during bike check-in who did exactly that; like me he raced both standard and sprint and he only brought one bike, spending the day in between swapping handlebars. He claimed it worked fine, and you seem to concur. Maybe I should look if I can come up with a way to easily swap handlebars on my P4. Main issue I see is cables - the internal routing is a bit of a bitch, and there is the "interesting" under-the-BB rear brake (which I replaced with a TriRig). But if I invest in eTap I cut down on the number of cables.

The aero-road helmet is a good point. I've been buying cheap-ass road helmets up to now, probably time to invest in something better.

Clip-ons (of any sort) are not allowed for AG ITU races as far as I know.

(Ohh... Slice.... now here's an idea: I have 2010 Slice frame. "Only crashed once", but what a crash. I stripped it, but have never seen any blemishes or cracks (the front wheel caught the brunt of the crash). Maybe I should build that up and not tell my wife. Or maybe not :-))

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
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Re: Non-aero bike in draft-legal race? [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
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You can try some cable quick disconnects like these for the rear brake and derailleurs (if you decide to not go eTap)

https://www.jensonusa.com/Ritchey-Quick-Disconnect-Derailleur?pt_source=googleads&pt_medium=cpc&pt_campaign=shopping_us&pt_keyword=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIy-yE8Juk3gIVVbXACh1PeQzxEAQYAyABEgKFZfD_BwE


I'm interested in what you end up doing. I've been mulling over basically this same idea for a while, but more so to help save space in my tiny apartment. (2 bikes, 1 frame)



Strava
Last edited by: gmh39: Oct 26, 18 6:35
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Re: Non-aero bike in draft-legal race? [gmh39] [ In reply to ]
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gmh39 wrote:
You can try some cable quick disconnects like these for the rear brake and derailleurs (if you decide to not go eTap)

https://www.jensonusa.com/Ritchey-Quick-Disconnect-Derailleur?pt_source=googleads&pt_medium=cpc&pt_campaign=shopping_us&pt_keyword=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIy-yE8Juk3gIVVbXACh1PeQzxEAQYAyABEgKFZfD_BwE


I'm interested in what you end up doing. I've been mulling over basically this same idea for a while, but more so to help save space in my tiny apartment. (2 bikes, 1 frame)


Nice. Didn't know that existed. Cursory looking into it the problem I see is that they're quite bulky and that it'll be hard to install them cleanly while keeping my cables out of the wind. But I should probably order some and play with them.

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
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Re: Non-aero bike in draft-legal race? [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
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Can always wrap them with electrical tape to make them into airfoils.

Strava
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Re: Non-aero bike in draft-legal race? [jollyroger88] [ In reply to ]
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Clip-On aerobars are not legal for Age-Group Draft Legal racing...

I've raced the last few sprint Du worlds in the DL configuration, and numerous other DL races. I've not had an aero road frame, and never felt that it was a huge hindrance. I am usually towards the tail end of my wave in T1, and then have to ride my way back up towards MOP (I'm usually lucky enough to get in a pack of strong riders from the wave behind me). Position is going to have more impact that slight aero savings from a frame... I am skipping Pontevedra next year, but based on discussions with the LOC reps that were in Fyn, the course will likely be lumpier, so there may be less benefit towards aero, and more benefit towards lightweight kit. I don't think it will be Penticton hilly, so there would still be a benefit to drafting (Penticton, was 2x10k laps, and there were maybe 2km ish each lap where you could actually build and roll a pack, but outside of that you were either climbing or descending and packs would explode...), but it'll be less of a pure DL bike than Fyn was (I was happy for a flat course, but I had wished that it was drastically more technical... The only real challenge was the wind...)...

In terms of which upgrades to make/not make, if you want a new bike, then might as well grab an aero-road frame as long as there's not a big weight frame, but I wouldn't feel like you need to do that. If you'd rather upgrade other gear, that might give you more bang for your buck. I'd honestly say, with your described race plan, would be to keep working at the run, and to focus on training yourself to handle riding out of your skin for a few km, and then being able to settle in to a more threshold style effort... That was my biggest regret for Fyn, because work was insane right up until I flew out, the last 8 weeks before I wasn't able to do the targeted training that I had hoped, but I would have like to get more comfortable with a huge front-end effort, and then settling into a pack... I knew with the form that I had that I needed to be smarter with burning matches up front, to avoid cracking (I still cracked once I got shelled from the group I started with).
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Re: Non-aero bike in draft-legal race? [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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Trauma wrote:
Clip-On aerobars are not legal for Age-Group Draft Legal racing...

I've raced the last few sprint Du worlds in the DL configuration, and numerous other DL races. I've not had an aero road frame, and never felt that it was a huge hindrance. I am usually towards the tail end of my wave in T1, and then have to ride my way back up towards MOP (I'm usually lucky enough to get in a pack of strong riders from the wave behind me). Position is going to have more impact that slight aero savings from a frame... I am skipping Pontevedra next year, but based on discussions with the LOC reps that were in Fyn, the course will likely be lumpier, so there may be less benefit towards aero, and more benefit towards lightweight kit. I don't think it will be Penticton hilly, so there would still be a benefit to drafting (Penticton, was 2x10k laps, and there were maybe 2km ish each lap where you could actually build and roll a pack, but outside of that you were either climbing or descending and packs would explode...), but it'll be less of a pure DL bike than Fyn was (I was happy for a flat course, but I had wished that it was drastically more technical... The only real challenge was the wind...)...

In terms of which upgrades to make/not make, if you want a new bike, then might as well grab an aero-road frame as long as there's not a big weight frame, but I wouldn't feel like you need to do that. If you'd rather upgrade other gear, that might give you more bang for your buck. I'd honestly say, with your described race plan, would be to keep working at the run, and to focus on training yourself to handle riding out of your skin for a few km, and then being able to settle in to a more threshold style effort... That was my biggest regret for Fyn, because work was insane right up until I flew out, the last 8 weeks before I wasn't able to do the targeted training that I had hoped, but I would have like to get more comfortable with a huge front-end effort, and then settling into a pack... I knew with the form that I had that I needed to be smarter with burning matches up front, to avoid cracking (I still cracked once I got shelled from the group I started with).

Thanks, makes sense. That wind was something else, eh? Did you race the Standard in Fyn as well? Those crosswinds were insane on that exposed highway. Did teach me that disks really are not a problem in high winds though :-)

So if it's hilly, you're right, focusing on the run, losing weight, and being able to throw down a number of relative high-power spikes as opposed to a developing higher threshold power seems to be the way to go.

Can I ask you what AG you raced in? I was in M50-54.

(As an aside: I was just checking the results again and I got relegated from 22nd when I last looked a couple of months ago to 24th now. 23rd is a Japanese fellow with almost identical times to me, just a hair faster so he finished 15 seconds ahead of me. Thing is I don't remember any Japanese racing close to me. He definitely wasn't in our draft pack, and everybody else that finished around me was. So what gives? He must have started in a different wave or something? You don't know, I'm just confused)

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
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Re: Non-aero bike in draft-legal race? [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
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I raced M 35-39, but didn't do the standard, just stood and heckled friends during that race (I haven't raced a standard distance at worlds since 2013 in Ottawa). The wind was worse for you guys in the standard, but we did get some wicked cross-winds not too long after you got off Odin's Bro on the way out... I got dropped from my pack on that section, when right after I took a pull and tucked in the back of the group, the rider in front of me jammed his breaks after nearly touching wheels (he was half-wheeling the guy in front of him), at the exact moment the front of our pack surged to try and close out the gap to the next group up the road... I had buried myself too much chasing into the pack to begin with out of T1, that with the wind, I couldn't quite bridge the gap back up (ended up riding solo for a while, and then two-up with an Irish guy for a bit, before he attacked me after I took a massive pull, joke was on him, since 30second later another pack rolled up to me, we caught him, and I put a surge in on the technical section, and then attacked the little rise coming out of it, and popped him off the back and never saw him again until after the finish line...). The promise of a hilly course was part of the reason for skipping Spain (that and the fact that it's so early in the year, I'm not sure how much outside riding I'll get when the snow melts before the race), I am looking forward to Alemere in 2020, and hopefully they don't wuss out on the course like Fyn, and make it super technical... along with the famed dutch 24/7 cross-winds, it could be a great course for me...

The only results changes I've noticed where people being bumped up, because of the Spaniard in the 40-44 who got nailed for doping (He won his AG in one of the Dus and was second in the other, and added another podium and a 4th place in two other events in the festival, before returning a positive for 3 different banned substances...)...
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Re: Non-aero bike in draft-legal race? [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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Trauma wrote:
The only results changes I've noticed where people being bumped up, because of the Spaniard in the 40-44 who got nailed for doping (He won his AG in one of the Dus and was second in the other, and added another podium and a 4th place in two other events in the festival, before returning a positive for 3 different banned substances...)...

Yeah, a friend of mine got his World Championship Gold Medal mailed to him instead of getting O Canada played for him. Dopers Suck.

Looking forward to Almere as well, especially the homestay at my sister-in-law in Amsterdam and my family cheering on. Logistics are definitely easier for me there.

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
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Re: Non-aero bike in draft-legal race? [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
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Unless you're going to solo off the front at 250+ watts, the aero in a pack is worthless until a sprint finish. Your pulls should be under a minute anyway.

I'd also be "shrewd" and not pull people forever just because you think you're the stronger rider. That's a pretty rookie race error in a pack. It's a race, not a weekend group ride coffee trip. Save the energy.

If you're that much faster, bridge to a faster group. If not, rotate work in the group you're in.

Be vocal, ask around for the stronger riders and drop the weaker ones to form a more elite chase group. Pick a roller and send the first guy up the road. Then the second, third, fourth. The weaker riders won't be able to bridge even the 100 yards or so.

That's what we do on a hammer ride when a rookie moves from the slower ride too soon and won't pull. We eject them out the back that way. Send guys off the front until it's them and one other person who can out sprint them to bridge up. Gone.
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Re: Non-aero bike in draft-legal race? [jollyroger88] [ In reply to ]
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jollyroger88 wrote:
My experience with draft legal sprints is that the best breakaway machine is a time trial frame fitted with dropbars and itu-legal (aka "Mini") clip ons. Rehinaldo Colucci in his ITU days used to bridge some serious gaps on the bike with a "roadie" Cèrvelo P3. I use a 1st generation Cannondale Slice for this purpose and it works very well. My advice is not to use a full integrated (superbike) time trial frame. Deep wheels also help, as well as a aero road helmet (such as the Specy Evade)


Mini TT bars are not allowed in AG and using a aero tri frame swapping out handlebars is not allowed either. All frames must be UCI legal road bike frames. I was told both of these in Sarasota FL last year.

Edit: I agree with the other comments. Helmet, clean the front, carbon/integrated handlebars.

Another thing to add. Cut the weight and loose the frills. In a sprint you can remove bento box and saddle bag, one water bottle( depending on heat).

Grow with data: Dynamic Sports Data | eBay store
Last edited by: D_PRC: Oct 26, 18 9:53
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Re: Non-aero bike in draft-legal race? [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
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Certainly work on aerodynamics of your equipment if you can. That always helps.

That said, you ability to lose a pack of wheel suckers and stay away is going to be more dependent on your ability to make a solid attack and recover. Once you get away, you're also going to want to make sure you stay as low and narrow as possible. Your body position will have more impact on aerodynamics than anything on your frame. It's easy to get into a solid aerodynamic position on a TT bike because you're fit for it. Most people are not fit to be super aero on their road bike so it takes a conscious effort to stay low and tuck your elbows in.
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Re: Non-aero bike in draft-legal race? [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
Unless you're going to solo off the front at 250+ watts, the aero in a pack is worthless until a sprint finish. Your pulls should be under a minute anyway.

I'd also be "shrewd" and not pull people forever just because you think you're the stronger rider. That's a pretty rookie race error in a pack. It's a race, not a weekend group ride coffee trip. Save the energy.

If you're that much faster, bridge to a faster group. If not, rotate work in the group you're in.

Be vocal, ask around for the stronger riders and drop the weaker ones to form a more elite chase group. Pick a roller and send the first guy up the road. Then the second, third, fourth. The weaker riders won't be able to bridge even the 100 yards or so.

That's what we do on a hammer ride when a rookie moves from the slower ride too soon and won't pull. We eject them out the back that way. Send guys off the front until it's them and one other person who can out sprint them to bridge up. Gone.

Heh. I'm definitely a rookie - that race was my first DL race *ever*. But of course I was exaggerating/simplifying when I said that "I" towed those guys to T2 - it was me and about 6 other guys (I remember a Brit, a Brazilian, an Irishman, a Swede, and some Americans) towing the rest (a Russian who wouldn't get out of the 3rd wheel, a couple of French guys, and some others I forget). The Irish guy and I tried to make a go of it before I went myself, but that went nowhere as well. In hindsight those 6 guys and I should have done what you said - drop the hammer and lose those other guys.

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
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Re: Non-aero bike in draft-legal race? [D_PRC] [ In reply to ]
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D_PRC wrote:
jollyroger88 wrote:
My experience with draft legal sprints is that the best breakaway machine is a time trial frame fitted with dropbars and itu-legal (aka "Mini") clip ons. Rehinaldo Colucci in his ITU days used to bridge some serious gaps on the bike with a "roadie" Cèrvelo P3. I use a 1st generation Cannondale Slice for this purpose and it works very well. My advice is not to use a full integrated (superbike) time trial frame. Deep wheels also help, as well as a aero road helmet (such as the Specy Evade)


Mini TT bars are not allowed in AG and using a aero tri frame swapping out handlebars is not allowed either. All frames must be UCI legal road bike frames. I was told both of these in Sarasota FL last year.

Edit: I agree with the other comments. Helmet, clean the front, carbon/integrated handlebars.

Another thing to add. Cut the weight and loose the frills. In a sprint you can remove bento box and saddle bag, one water bottle( depending on heat).

Hey DP,

I've seen a lot of reference to "road bike" in draft legal literature. I don't know about UCI, but when I held a USAC Officials license, USAC didn't differentiate between "road" and "time trial" bikes. Time Trials were also a sub-category of Road Race. I took a look at stuff on the USAT site, but it was a bit cryptic. Can you point me to the right rule book for draft legal events.? Thanks!
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Re: Non-aero bike in draft-legal race? [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
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You drop people in DL on pure guts and ability, not faster aero frame or mini TT bars. You do that by putting yourself in the hurt locker. Imagine that. A strong biker in the hurt locker, what do you think they are feeling? That's what you need to go after. And when you commit, by god you better fing commit. You go for it and put your head down and don't look back, and if you get 1 or 2 to come with you, even better as you now have a likely sustainable breakaway group that can "share" the workload and WANT to put time on the group.

But that's damn hard to do with most people are usually ready for it and are able to atleast hold wheels. But AG there is far greater ability and rider levels then at the pros where "breakaways" rarely result in much unless your a Brownlee.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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