I'll bite.

I have done a two loop course - IMCDA, a modified two loop course - IMW, and a three loop course - IMAZ.

Drafting/packs were far more prevalent at IMAZ than the others, though IMW had some fairly substantial groups on the out to the loop.

I will agree that course alterations/modifications are more likely to affect the drafting/packs than enforcement of the rules. But I will go one further and say that regardless of course configuration a mass-start has the biggest impact to drafting/packs than anything else.

Anytime you start 2100+ people at the same time, with a substantial portion getting out of the water at close intervals (in the 1:10 - 1:20 range) you are going to have huge groups of people. I think wave starts are about the best way to completely rid packs/drafting. Just my two cents.

Edited to add: I like the mass start for IM's personally and would be happy to see them remain. I was only suggesting that waves would suppress the drafting/pack situations that are likely a result of mass starts.

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Formally azclydesdale, back in Northeast Ohio.

definetly the mass start contributes. At the same time, a mass start and then everyone on the course in loop two certainly contributes to accidents, congestion, and drafting

I suspect that multiple loop courses do contribute to the traffic problem on IM bike courses. However, it may not be as bad as you may think. If you think about it the riders mixing it up who are on there first lap and second lap, would in reality be at two totally differnt levels of fitness. The people on the first lap would now be possibly 3 hours or more behind the people on their second lap, so the speeds would be very different. It's doubtful that someone who is that far behind is going to jump in and ride with people that are that far ahead on the road and in terms of fitness. It will happen, but I suspect it is rare. It's more of a traffic issue - I suspect that the traffic can get really bad on the second lap for certain groups. I have heard of guys going horse from constantly yelling "ON YOUR LEFT" as they pass slower cyclists.

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

My issue with 3 lap races is the danger caused by fast riders lapping slower riders.

Not speed, but difference in speed is the true danger. A strong rider at 30mph passing someone going 15mph and weaving in congestion is risky.

I hope I'm wrong but it just seems like there have been a lot of accidents on multi-loop bike courses of late and the trend with these new IM races is to have multi loops.

Seems like there is some saftey being sacrificed.



IMAZ was rediculous in that you had pros passing Age groupers, passing slower age groupers

Take a course like Florida where you could ride a bit without comming near anyone



why does IMNA put on these types of races? I believe IM Arizona still will have a bunch of loops?

2 loops are the same as 1 loop. Only a very small % of riders, if any, will be passing people on their second loop who are still on their first loop. Assuming you are coming out of the swim at the same time, a 5 hr rider will be at mile 78 when a 7 hour rider completed one loop (56 miles). Two loops are not an issue. Mass starts are the issue.

I was on a course last summer that had a sprint, 1/2 IM and IM distance race going on at the same time on a 30 kms loop. No incidents but the potential is certainly there.

Solution: hills.

Okay, that's impractical for many areas but it doesn't matter if it's one loop or 112 loops, if the course is flat and you have those 2000 plus competitors, the answer will always be "drafting". Arizona with 3 loops+ versus Florida's single loop---lots and lots of group riding and the one constant was a flat course.

Don't know of any way around this for races like AZ except for perhaps wave starts, but you're then still left with the congestion caused by faster/slower riders where it seems many of the slower ones are relative newbies to the sport and don't understand that, just as in driving a car, slower traffic keep right!

<of course, observing driving habits---at least in Northern California---the rule of slower traffic staying to the right is not adhered to there, either, so the dimwitted-ness is not limited to triathletes>

the problem with the mass start vs wave debate is that waves are done on age/sex rather than time.



think about a marathon being seeded in start corralls or sections--you wouldn't put a 40 year old 3 hr runner in with a 22 yr old 4 1/2 hr marathon runner??

if you have a mass start and then a single loop once your out and riding, its a lot more open



the other aspect of this is 2000 plus athletes in an IM?

then have a 3 loop course and ......

[reply]2 loops are the same as 1 loop. Only a very small % of riders, if any, will be passing people on their second loop who are still on their first loop.[/reply]

I agree wholly. In the GFT I only passed about 10 to 20 people who were still on their first lap when I was in the last 20 or so miles of my second lap. In general this isn't a big problem. I wouldn't like a 3 lap race much, for the simple reason that the people I fly past at 22+ on my last lap are likely to be less experienced riders...less stable and therefore more dangerous when fatigued and less capable of hearing me coming. A solution to getting hoarse is to stick a little dingle-bell on your bars. Brrrrring brrrrrring!!! :D

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1) My guess is that the data doesn't exist support your argument. I've done IMs on 1, 2 and 3 loops course. You can't generalize the course problems and blame them on the loops. You need more measureable data. (penalties, incidents, near misses, etc)

2) IMNA isn't going to change them. The reality is that IMs sell out in hours. I can't speak for Graham, but imagine this is how they define success.

3) It's cheaper...and cheaer...and cheaper to run a multi loop course.

4) It's actually much safer as you have better access to help when needed. This is...providing people follow the rules. It actually comes right back to you and me to provide that!