Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Ironman 70.3 WC Men's Race - Live coverage [Staer] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Exactly.

I feel like some people are screaming, "CHEATER" to a situation that carried no impact on the race. He still would have placed 3rd, Ben still would have placed 4th. He wasn't using the draft zone violation as a way to cheat or gain an unfair advantage. Yes, what he did was against the rules, but... whatever. Carry on




Staer wrote:
To me it looked more like he came around that turn way too hot, saw the bump late and then hit the brakes when he saw the others were actually slowing down. It looked completely unintentional, and he did what he could to immediately get out of the zone.

There was also no room for him to pass - he would have had to pass everyone as they were all legally spaced. Since slotting in is against the rules, he would have had to put in a mega surge to get to the front for this to be entirely legal.

This is a case where understanding the situation and dynamics of cycling is required. Yes, literally, factually, by the book, he entered the draft zone, but it was very clearly (to me at least) a mistake and result of taking the bend too fast and bracing oneself over a speed bump (not braking right away, as that could result in a crash).

Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching



Quote Reply
Re: Ironman 70.3 WC Men's Race - Live coverage [Staer] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
To me it looked more like he came around that turn way too hot, saw the bump late and then hit the brakes when he saw the others were actually slowing down. It looked completely unintentional, and he did what he could to immediately get out of the zone. //

Yes in this one case it really looks like it was a course problem that caused this compression, he should not be held liable for this. Same thing if a car or whatever suddenly appears and everyone is hitting the brakes, that should be a penalty free zone. As we all saw there was a speed bump right after a 90 degree turn, and he quickly corrected and slid back. It's silly to think there was any advantage gotten "there"..


Now I cannot speak to other spots out on the course, I saw several riders get into the person in front zones and not pass, but it was just barley. I have no problem with officials not calling those, as most were unintentional as I could see, just bound to happen over 56 miles and 9 guys riding the limits..Gomez may have done it more than most, he seemed to be straddling the fine line more than most..


And seemed that there was an official right there the entire time, so if there were some blatant violations and not called, it is on them. They set the tone for how the guys are going to ride, if they do nothing then guys think things are ok...
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman 70.3 WC Men's Race - Live coverage [Brandes] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Brandes wrote:
Exactly.

I feel like some people are screaming, "CHEATER" to a situation that carried no impact on the race. He still would have placed 3rd, Ben still would have placed 4th. He wasn't using the draft zone violation as a way to cheat or gain an unfair advantage. Yes, what he did was against the rules, but... whatever. Carry on




Staer wrote:
To me it looked more like he came around that turn way too hot, saw the bump late and then hit the brakes when he saw the others were actually slowing down. It looked completely unintentional, and he did what he could to immediately get out of the zone.

There was also no room for him to pass - he would have had to pass everyone as they were all legally spaced. Since slotting in is against the rules, he would have had to put in a mega surge to get to the front for this to be entirely legal.

This is a case where understanding the situation and dynamics of cycling is required. Yes, literally, factually, by the book, he entered the draft zone, but it was very clearly (to me at least) a mistake and result of taking the bend too fast and bracing oneself over a speed bump (not braking right away, as that could result in a crash).

Question for you Steve, and all the others on this thread....

How many times did you see Kanute curtail the edge of the draft zone? How many times did he run up into someone's zone? Let me save you some time, ZERO. In fact, the commentators mentioned how particularly safe he was being, despite the fact he spent most of the race in positions 1 and 2, and some at 3. Being safe and forcing the others to deal with that stress and take the risks was part of our strategy. It's frustrating to prepare and strategize, according to specific rules, only to show up and be racing under different rules.

The fact it is excused in many people's eyes on this thread because it was unintentional, only makes athletes look to do it more, and guess what, it doesn't matter what their intent was. If they violated the rule, make the call. Gomez wasn't the only one, the Belgian did it too. And if the race had been fairly called, Kanute surely has a greater likelihood of making his second straight podium.

You never once saw Gomez take the lead on the bike, as he was always content to sit 4th to 8th wheel. But here's the thing, when you make that strategic decision, it has risks. You run this exact risk of skating on the edge of the zone and being called. Unless of course it has no risks, because no official has the guts to call it, even when you violate the rule.

The guy is a multi-time World Champion, and Olympic Silver medalist. Stop making excuses for him, as tho he is incompetent or shouldn't be held to the basic standard of racing, which he knows and understands, and even the commentators talk about how he is violating. Everyone wants a great race, well a great race happens when the rules are enforced and guys willing to push the pace are rewarded.

I can tell you this much, we will be making changes to our strategies in the future, in lieu of what we have learned from this race.

Jim Vance
http://TodaysPlan.com.au (Disclosure: I am contracted with Today's Plan)
http://www.CoachVance.com/
Twitter @jimvance
Quote Reply
Post deleted by windschatten [ In reply to ]
Re: Ironman 70.3 WC Men's Race - Live coverage [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
windschatten wrote:
JimVance wrote:


How many times did you see Kanute curtail the edge of the draft zone? How many times did he run up into someone's zone? Let me save you some time, ZERO. .



Having watched the whole race live, and now having done some rough measurements on some stills (overhead), I can rest well calling you out on that BS statement.
.
Stop being a Bully.
.

In my other thread, I said if anyone can show me evidence, I'm happy to take the criticism, as that's why I asked for independent reviewers. But watch the race again, and notice how conservative he was with gaps. If you think I'm a bully, then fine, but I'm not stopping.

Jim Vance
http://TodaysPlan.com.au (Disclosure: I am contracted with Today's Plan)
http://www.CoachVance.com/
Twitter @jimvance
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman 70.3 WC Men's Race - Live coverage [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fleck wrote:
I think the two Gomez supporters are missing the point: most of us did not think Frodo was going to hang on to AB or Gomez on the run. I thought Frodo stood no chance when I saw AB open up with a 4:48 pace 30:30 10k. For Frodo to not only hold on but toss down a run of that caliber, that’s why its Frodo this and Frodo that


I did not see the race live, but I do know the philosophy and strategy of Alistair Brownlee when it comes to ITU draft legal racing and it's proved HIGHLY effective for him and his brother. Yes - they are allowed to draft on the bike (which many bemoan), but if you watch both Brownlee brothers race, particularly in the big races, they really don't care about this - they make each leg swim/bike/run as hard from the get-go as they physically and humanly can essentially throwing down the gauntlet of either,"I blow up, or you blow up". It get's winnowed down to the real contenders pretty quickly.

Obviously taking this same strategy and philosophy to the 1/2 IM distance requires a bit more thinking and a deeper well of fitness - but it's exciting to see!

Yeah, I think this forum of long-distance focused amateur athletes are really, really underestimating what an ITU bike leg is like. In Montreal, it was plain and obvious how hard and on the limit the riding was; when the Norwegians upped the pace to join the breakaway, the whole chase pack was lined out single-file. And that's without the Brownlees. Sagiv is not a bad rider, but when Stornes&Blu decided to drop him and go full-gas, he was shelled. That's not the average Gran Fondo mass ride....

ZONE3 - We Last Longer
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman 70.3 WC Men's Race - Live coverage [JimVance] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Jim,

I am going to totally honest here. I really don't care. I've stopped caring along time ago when things didn't change. I've stopped caring when pro's continue to let dopers get a pass back in this sport. I stop caring when pros started to wear and support a dopers clothing line but still believe in clean sport (hypocrisy). I've stopped caring when professional triathletes take money from a murdering prince. Professional triathlon itself and all of the rules placed upon them is a fallacy.

If Ben committed no acts of drafting in the race, great. You mention Gomez not going to the front, I really didn't see Ben go to the front much either. Was that because he wasn't strong enough or was he playing the same game as Gomez? Hats off to him for riding a great race. But he wasn't to the level of the top 3. Its a high standard. He's still 4-6.5 minutes off the best runners in the 70.3 circuit. He is getting closer. I wonder what types of things you and Ben would work on.

Back to Gomez. I repeatedly made it clear that I understood what Gomez did was a penalty. I will stand by my argument that what Gomez did didn't provide a benefit to his race. I really do wonder if that was Kaunte, instead of Gomez, what your stance would be. You would be doing what you're doing now, protecting Ben. I understand you're upset and you want change but it's not going to happen. What happened was racing and in racing, shit happens. It seems like you wanted a perfectly clean race to unfold and you of all people should know that in any professional arena, shit happens.



JimVance wrote:
Brandes wrote:
Exactly.

Question for you Steve, and all the others on this thread....

How many times did you see Kanute curtail the edge of the draft zone? How many times did he run up into someone's zone? Let me save you some time, ZERO. In fact, the commentators mentioned how particularly safe he was being, despite the fact he spent most of the race in positions 1 and 2, and some at 3. Being safe and forcing the others to deal with that stress and take the risks was part of our strategy. It's frustrating to prepare and strategize, according to specific rules, only to show up and be racing under different rules.

The fact it is excused in many people's eyes on this thread because it was unintentional, only makes athletes look to do it more, and guess what, it doesn't matter what their intent was. If they violated the rule, make the call. Gomez wasn't the only one, the Belgian did it too. And if the race had been fairly called, Kanute surely has a greater likelihood of making his second straight podium.

You never once saw Gomez take the lead on the bike, as he was always content to sit 4th to 8th wheel. But here's the thing, when you make that strategic decision, it has risks. You run this exact risk of skating on the edge of the zone and being called. Unless of course it has no risks, because no official has the guts to call it, even when you violate the rule.

The guy is a multi-time World Champion, and Olympic Silver medalist. Stop making excuses for him, as tho he is incompetent or shouldn't be held to the basic standard of racing, which he knows and understands, and even the commentators talk about how he is violating. Everyone wants a great race, well a great race happens when the rules are enforced and guys willing to push the pace are rewarded.

I can tell you this much, we will be making changes to our strategies in the future, in lieu of what we have learned from this race.

Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching



Last edited by: Brandes: Sep 6, 18 7:04
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman 70.3 WC Men's Race - Live coverage [JimVance] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Just wanted to point out that your behavior here isn't doing Kanute any favors (even if you're right).
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman 70.3 WC Men's Race - Live coverage [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
windschatten wrote:
JimVance wrote:


How many times did you see Kanute curtail the edge of the draft zone? How many times did he run up into someone's zone? Let me save you some time, ZERO. .



Having watched the whole race live, and now having done some rough measurements on some stills (overhead), I can rest well calling you out on that BS statement.
.
Stop being a Bully.
.


So reading through the thread, guys said when Gomez rode into the draft zone. You've now said that Kanute did, so can you give us a time stamp of when/where this occurred?

And did others also go into the draft zones, because I've only read where Gomez's infraction occurred (coming out of a turn or over some speed humps). I've only seen mention of others doing it, but no actual real data showing when they actually did it. ETA: Your saying you re-watched and took still shots of it to "measure", so can you provide that evidence?

So can you provide the info that you are saying he did in fact do it?

(I have no dog in the fight, I'm sitting back watching this thread and people have shown the evidence of where Gomez did, but I havent seen mention of anyone else being actually identified as to why they rode into the zones of others).

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Sep 6, 18 5:29
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman 70.3 WC Men's Race - Live coverage [Brandes] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Great post, very mature and well written. What are you doing on slowtwitch? ;) seriously though, thank you for interjecting a calm rationale argument.
Quote Reply

Prev Next