I agree.

Correct.

This is a huge win for big box stores that have to compete with other online sources. The claim this may help mom and pop stores is specious, at best.

There is a reason Walmart is celebrating this ruling as a major victory.

http://www.latimes.com/...-20180621-story.html

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Something tells me that Amazon will collect the sales tax for their vendors, for a fee of course. Additionally, it could drive people to purchase direct from Amazon as well.

I seriously doubt this will stop many people from ordering their stuff. If it were such a huge factor, you would have seen a dip in sales when Amazon started collecting taxes on their sales.

I think service and convenience are the primary factor when ordering on Amazon. I would suspect small difference in tax upon final checkout usually isn't even noticed on most purchases.

Where it could hurt is something like Newegg where people pinch pennies. They compare Amazon and Newegg and use Newegg to save a few bucks. Now, they'll just go with Amazon because it's easier.

I wouldn't consider this a win for brick and mortar. I consider it a loss for the consumer paying more tax and a win for the states which get to spend more money for doing nothing.

^This.

With the exception of Home Depot, every time I go to an actual store to buy something, they don't have it in stock. I went to a running shoe store a few weeks ago and they had nothing in stock. Sure, they offered to order it, but then after a few days I get to go back to the store to get it. Alternatively, I can get it delivered directly to my house if I order it online, and probably get it sooner.

The thing I'm surprised hasn't been commented on yet is the taxation. We have become so accustomed to taxes, we don't see a problem buying a product in another state and being forced to give our home state a taste. For what? What role did our home state play in the transaction?

If you physically drive from Illinois to Wisconsin and enter a store in Wisconsin and make a purchase, you are making a purchase in Wisconsin. The entire transaction is taking place in Wisconsin. When you sit on your couch, in your underwear, in Illinois, and order your cheese online from a store in Wisconsin, where is the purchase taking place? Have you entered Wisconsin? No. Are you in a store in Wisconsin? No. Is your wallet in Wisconsin? No. Have you subjected yourself to the jurisdiction of Wisconsin? No. The transaction is in Illinois. The purchase is considered to have been made in Illinois.

Assume you enter a Home Depot in Illinois for a fridge. They don't have it. They can have one shipped from Wisconsin to your home. Where did the transaction take place? What role did Illinois play in the process? What if, instead of going into the Home Depot in Illinois, you, again in your stained underwear, eating a big polish sausage on your couch, drinking a Zima, you go on Home Depot online and order your fridge. Does it matter whether the fridge is shipped from an Illinois warehouse or Wisconsin warehouse or Ohio warehouse?

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

The stained underwear accusation is one thing, but suggesting I drink Zima crosses a hateful line.

Back on topic...what's the reason/justification for sales tax?

It amounts to taxation without representation. Don't know if small online businesses are going to be able to survive the blow, either:

Did The Supreme Court Potentially Bankrupt Tens Of Thousands Of Small Online Businesses?

"Small business is supposed to be the engine of economic growth and the internet is now the engine of small business growth. Today’s Supreme Court’s decision is potentially the engine of small business death. This plus the looming global trade war may be more than enough to pull the plug on our economic recovery.

Yes, we’ve very badly needed to rationalize state-business taxation. But what was and is needed is a system in which a company can file one and only one unified state sales and income tax return, pay one and only one tax bill and then have the states divvy up the proceeds. This will no doubt require federal legislation. Absent such a solution, the little engine that could — small online business — may immediately become the little engine that can’t."

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"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

I think that this sentence above is really the heart of the matter. The online transaction is digital and probably received in a server overseas. The company that you ordered from (retailer) could be in Florida. A different company owns the online platform that you placed the order through (amazon) and let’s say they are incorporated and located in Delaware. The warehouse or fulfillment center that ships the product is in Colorado. So which State sales tax applies?

The only constant is where the product gets delivered and is consumed - that being in your home state (South Dakota in my case). As South Dakota is losing out on the sales tax if the transaction would have been conducted locally in person. So the law was passed to capture back the tax revenue that would have been collected on that local purchase but was lost to the online transaction - one that cannot be pinpointed to a specific location to assess the tax.

As I said earlier - I agree this is a huge hit to small online businesses. Small business was harmed today.

However, it absolution is not "taxation without representation." I do not agree with that at all.

While I have enjoyed the tax-free online shopping for years, it really does not make any sense. Sales tax is intended as a revenue source for states and local municipalities. It makes no sense for these online purchases to be tax free.

The argument has been made that the state of the purchaser should not get a taste b/c they did not do anything. That is not true. The state and municipality has to provide and maintain the roads for the delivery to your home. Increased traffic from deliveries results in traffic lights having to be installed. If the item is stolen from your porch, local police must respond. If the delivery truck catches fire, local fire department has to put it out. Plus, you, the buyer, are using internet lines, phone lines, electricity, all provided locally, to make that purchase. So, yes, the state of the purchaser should get a taste.

Think about this - windywave is sitting on the couch in his stained underwear, drinking a Zima, eating a polish sausage in Illinois. He uses his internet with a server in Ohio to contact an online store in Texas to purchase an item that is shipped from a warehouse in Michigan. Which state should get the sales tax on that item? It only makes sense it be Illinois because that is where the purchase took place - in a dumpy little apartment with a tear-stained mattress and a case of Zima.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

ahem,,,, Use Tax

from a Wisconsin CPA (most states have similar laws)
http://www.wkmr.com/...tax-online-purchases


"If you are not charged Wisconsin sales tax on purchases you’ve made online, you are still required to pay the sales tax to the state of Wisconsin on that purchase. This is called use tax. Use tax is similar to sales tax and is imposed on purchases of any property, items, goods, or taxable services, purchased from a retailer, if:
• The property, item, good or service is stored, used, or consumed in Wisconsin by the purchaser in a taxable manner; and,
• No Wisconsin Sales Tax was paid by the purchaser to the retailer of the property, item, good or service.

If you are not charged Wisconsin sales tax on purchases you’ve made online, you are still required to pay the sales tax to the state of Wisconsin on that purchase. "



It should be reported on line 34 of Wisconsin Form 1 (Wisconsin's 1040) - I'm sure you filled that out correctly when you filed your return.

You still haven't told me my the default question is "which state gets the sales tax?" Why is the question not, "why is there state sales tax on this item?"

If there is a brick and mortar store in a state and a purchase is made in that store, I can understand (although I don't agree with) the argument that the state is supplying roads, etc. (think Warren's "you didn't build that").

But if I'm in PA and I purchase something online that is made and delivered from CA, why does PA get a taste?

I don't know about that, man. Increased traffic also means that FedEx, UPS, et al are hiring additional delivery people in your area, paying for more trucks, paying registration, paying gas tax at your state's rate, etc, all of which contributes to the cost of those roads and traffic lights. Same with your fire scenario. State police aren't going to be the ones to respond to a package being stolen and in many cases the retailer eats the cost as a business expense, like with credit card chargebacks the police don't and can't do anything about. Internet, phone, electricity are privately purchased services that don't have anything to do with the state (save for how they're regulated) and are all taxed.

It just doesn't make sense to me how the state of Michigan is at a massive loss when I purchase something online from Ogden, Utah, other than the fact I didn't go to a local retailer and pay more. But the money I saved from purchasing a hard good online also puts more money in my pocket to go out for entertainment and dining locally...all contributing to the state's tax base.

If I'm a small online retailer, it's very likely that I'm going to select certain states and choose not to do business with customers from those places, knowing that the cost of me having to pay and file sales tax in those places is more of a cost burden than it's worth. The idea behind this may be to help the little guys who've been impacted by online shopping, but I'd bet the big players win the most.

I think brick and mortar could survive the new environment. They just have to cater to it. There are so many things you want to be able to lay your hands on, or in clothing try on, before ordering. Your local store could easily be that place then place the order to be delivered tomorrow at your house. It seems like it could be a major win for them as they wouldn't have to invest a huge amount in inventory that they mar or may not sell. But I don't think the stores or manufacturers have adapted to the new way of doing retail.

This seems like a no brainer for something like bike shops. No need to commit to 125 frames in all sizes then be stuck with last year's frames they sell at a loss. Have a couple representative frames, order on demand. Same with clothing, shoes, wetsuits, etc. Instead, manufacturers require minimum purchases and the traditional bike shop is now a Starbucks.

The only store I have seen integrate online ordering with the brick and mortar is when my wife would shop at the Limited. When they don't have it, they offer to order it and it gets delivered to your house within 2 days. Most every other place just shrugs their shoulders, or at best will get it to the store some time next week, assuming the truck comes on time.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

I'm well aware and I assume you are well aware no one actually does as well as the fact that if every online person actually did this, state departments of revenue would be woefully understaffed to handle these reports.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I'm pretty sure I did answer that exact question in the response you quoted ...


If you walk into a store in PA and purchase something that has to be ordered from a manufacturing facility in China, shipped to a port in CA, then delivered from a warehouse in IL to your home in PA, why should PA get a taste?

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I'm not saying it is a massive loss to the state of Michigan. But, I don't see this any any different than when you walk into a Home Depot in Michigan to buy a fridge that is manufactured in TN and shipped from a warehouse in OH to your home in MI. You will pay MI tax on that purchase even though what you did is no different than ordering that fridge from the comfort of your own couch.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Lots of arguing over sales tax. It will be imposed whether you agree with it's propriety or not. Y'all are just pissing into a headwind.

I agree, which is what I have been saying throughout this thread.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

As you say it is true. If the state has an opportunity to tax they will. I suppose you could move to New Hampshire.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Same. States cannot get all the money they need to operate by taxing one source. That's why there is state income tax, property tax, and sales tax. Take away sales tax and jack up the state taxes on companies and those companies will leave that state. Wisconsin is seeing the impact of state corporate taxes as companies continue to flee Illinois to come up to God's country.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I don’t think anyone was arguing about the fairness of paying sales tax for online purchases. The discussion originally was about this being the almighty savior for small business (False). It has morphed into a valid discussion on which State has jurisdiction over assessing the tax. But many of us have said it will not change our purchasing online.

It is no different, which is why states want you pay sales tax either way.