I wouldn't personally trust AliExpress sellers. Order straight from the quality builders:

http://www.flyxii.com/
http://www.dengfubikes.com/
http://www.hongfu-bikes.com/
http://www.workswellbikes.com/
http://www.velobuildmall.com/




Whole thread on this on WeightWeenies


https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=113717&sid=50b3718e4c2b18ce04857dc484177c7a&start=3120

I did all that on ebay. It's really no different, except on ebay you have more recourse because of the feedback system, and theoretically the price should be higher because of the ebay fees. I say theoretically because I didn't find that to be the case for the frame I wanted. Plus ebay ran a 20% off promotion June 6 (max $100 discount) that I'm sure would have beaten any direct seller discount I might have been able to negotiate.

Carbon-goods who I linked earlier has 1200 feedback and 100%. I haven't bought anything from them, but that's a pretty good record, IMO.

I'm curious to know from anyone who has purchased an open-mold frame how you went about ordering the correct size. I see that most of the sellers have geometry charts online. Is that all you used? I know my X and Y measurements, will that be enough?

Thanks, all, for the assorted bits of information---and especially the links.

Through it all, I wound up buying direct through Fly XII (thanks for the link, Caverunner17). They had both a frameset and stem/handlebar that met my measurements and budget. I'll post pics once the build is complete...I'm guessing mid-to-late July, given shipping time and all.

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#cureMS

The origins of a frame don't mean much. The way manufacturers work, they can either build a sweet bike for big money, or a pile of crap to hit the contracted price point. Often on the same factory floor. Also keep in mind, you can swing into nearly any factory in Asia and ask to see a catalog of what they have to offer then say, "I'll take 500." As a "brand" you may not have a clue what is really in that frame. Also, although not as common, sometimes a factory has a bunch of unclaimed frames, or frames they decided to make to recoup some of their tooling expenses. They then pay someone to go find a buyer for those factory orphans. Again, who knows what's really in the frame. I'm a bike journalist and years ago did a story about these orphan frames, some made with rice paper in the layup. LOL.

At the root of it, buying an unknown brand is exactly what you think it is - an unknown. Could be great, could be made with last year's local newspaper in the layup.

Each of the frames is going to have different stack and reach measurements. Some are going to be more aggressive, some more relaxed. Compare measurements to bikes you've had in the past. If you're between sizes, go the smaller size. You can always adjust size a bit with different stems and seatpost heights to accommodate for a good fit.

Let's play devil's advocate... bike journalism is supported by ad revenue -- from bike manufacturers.
Or as you've stated, bike "brands". And most/all brands now use contract manufacturers located in Asia...
There's an obvious bias to your caveat. No?

Eh, not really. I'm a freelancer and not beholden to any one publisher. I was a magazine editor for 8 years. There were definitely moments when I placed a toe on the ad-money line, maybe a little over that line.

I would also say, most writers are more likely to fawn over a brand for all sorts of reasons than chide one maker to defend another. If something sucks, it sucks. That might mean it doesn't get editorial coverage at all. Who wants to burn words on a junk product when there are great ones out there to cover.

So, while I think many readers might think journalists are easily swooned by the allure of a paycheck, keep in mind it is a pittance. Now, if the aforementioned Chinese no-namer brand bought me a Tesla, I'd rave about it. LOL. For what amounts to a phone bill payment? Ha. No.

I will say, being a bike journalist has given me a very cool look into how brands big and small make bikes. And it is incredibly fascinating, and largely unreported. Also why I wouldn't buy a no-name bike to save a few bucks.

But...that is a fine point you bring up, Mr. Devil's Advocate. :)

I like how the story of frames made from paper changes from one telling to another. One person says it was newspaper. The next says it was rice paper. Eventually people will be claiming it was pages from Mao's little red book. Yet there are thousands of thousands of buyers active in forums in the U.S. and Europe without rampant failure and no tales of reading the Beijing funnies in a head tube.

Yeah I'm keen to source all the parts and build a bike, but I can't find cheap frames in Australia. The cheapest I can find is PlanetX, but I would have to pay shipping. I wouldn't have a problem buying Chinese, but the resale is crap in Australia. People won't touch 2nd hand Chinese frames and wheels and I'd want to sell it at some point. There are companies like Caden Wheels (Australia) appearing now who source parts from China, but build their wheels in Australia, to a very high standard. So shipping is quick and cheap, you get a warranty and warranty returns aren't an issue. When I bought my wheels from Light Bicycle in China it was a nightmare. 3 weeks to ship, 4 weeks to return as the front was damaged, 1 week to inspect, 3 weeks to ship back, so almost 3 months.

So what you're saying (your words) is you have your price when it comes to honest unbiased journalism? Is that right? You put it at a Tesla?

I hear the argument about resale being a problem, but here's my perspective.

A generic frame that costs $500 could likely sell for $250-$350 on the used market (at least in my area, $350 would sell reasonably fast and it would sell in the same day for $250). That's upwards of a 50% depreciation and a $250 hit.

Now, compare this will a used brand name frame that costs $1500. If you go to sell it, I'd wager that you are going to lose more that $250 on that frame when you sell it new. Maybe you'd get $1000 (just a guess).

So, a generic frame loses a bigger % of original cost, but in terms of actual $, the name brand frame nets a greater loss of $.

Ah, come on, Rocky. It was a joke. I did offer some pretty honest inside scoop on how the journalism world really works, though. There isn't nearly the bias people think, because there's no real payoff. As a writer I get no more or less compensation for what I write. I do risk not getting more work if my review seems inaccurate or fawning. And I've written reviews that pionted out shortcomings and had bike designers just shrug and say, "Mmmkay." There's more thick skin in the bike world than you think. (Maybe not here, LOL)

There's another layer. I've reviewed countless hundreds of products over the years and like many product engineers themselves have said, there are not many genuinely bad products out there. Some with quirks, but that's about it. The real junk just isn't worth the time to review or write about.

That said, there are certainly products not many people know much about. That somewhat rings true of these bikes of unknown origins.

From my own perspective I wouldn't buy one of these bikes simply because I'd worry about the integrity of key pieces like steerer tubes, etc. But, not trying to foist my opinion on anyone. Tons of people have great luck with these bikes.

Well, to be fair, I think it was a newspaper, and I think it was rice paper. It was hard to tell with all the resin. But to your point, even the big brands have rampant failures and recalls.

At any rate, I took the long way to get to my point. As I was originally saying, the way bike parts are manufacturered, these frames could either be near clones of a top-tier frame, or they could be akin to a Rollex.

Take for example the newest carbon bikes on the uber top end. Some are made of 350-500 individual pieces of carbon. It's possible for a factory to make a bike that looks pretty darn cool and similar with 75-100 plies joined with cheap-o resin. Pretty comon practice, actually. The question is, does it matter to the buyer. If not, who cares.

My point is, the provenance, China, Taiwan, whateves, doesn't really matter. It's what happens on the factory floor that matters. And that's hard to know with these bikes.

Does Flyxii provide any type of paint job? I was looking on the site but couldn’t find it.

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I still lapped everyone on the couch!

These frames can be fine. I don't buy the argument that you could suffer from a JRA carbon ass-plosion just because it's an open mold frame, they're generally pretty durable. These frames are often unyeildingly stiff, which can be good if that's what you want.

The real downfall of these frames is often in the details. Internal cabling that rattles or has too much friction. Thin, easily damaged derailleur hangers. Seatpost clamps that are a bit tricky to get cinched down well enough. Etc. I'd read the reviews of the various models online and pick a model that has the details sorted out. One word of caution: if you need a complete bike, get a complete bike. If you're buying everything retail, once you add up the frame + componnents + wheels + cables + tires etc, you'll find that you don't save much with an open mold frame vs. just going to a bike shop. Swapping parts over from another frame is a different proposition.

Nice try.

I did roll Chinese carbon for a front aero wheel when I started to TT on a budget. Only reason I dumped it was because I got a smoking deal on it but couldn't find a matching rear wheel at a reasonable enough price. I emailed the seller in China and they were willing to sell just a rear, but I may as well have bought an entire set.

No, this is not true. There’s no money in endemic advertising. Yes, cycling brands buy ad space, but this happens through the publisher, not the editor.

Also, where paid content appears in print or online, it is clearly stated. If it’s not, then you’re probably reading infowars, etc.

So, you’re wrong. Really, really wrong.

Also, Quito is mostly correct. Many brands, especially the bigger brands (eg Spec, Trek, Fuji), visit their respective manufacturing facilities several times per year, to do QC/QA checkup.

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no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here

hiro11 wrote:

One word of caution: if you need a complete bike, get a complete bike. If you're buying everything retail, once you add up the frame + componnents + wheels + cables + tires etc, you'll find that you don't save much with an open mold frame vs. just going to a bike shop.

Yes and no.

I'll give a run down of a hypothetical build using my $375 Flyxii frame:

Frame, fork, headset, seatpost: $375
105 5800 groupset: $425 (Merlin) - comes with cables too
Campagnolo Khamsin wheelset: $150
Vittoria Rubino Pro 3 x2 tire: $30
Tubes: $5
Deda Road Stem: $15
FSA Handlebars: $25


That's about $1025, not including saddle or pedals (personal choice for any bike you buy anyways.

Let's look at Nashbar's $1000 bike - FSA Crankset (where my size, 50CM would come with a too long of a crank arm), bottom barrel brakeset, cheap 26TPI tires, carbon fork with alloy steerer (vs full carbon), lower end wheels.

Bikes Direct is similar to Nashbar, but $100-150 more for full carbon.

Performance has a Fuji for $1350 (plus tax, so closer to $1425), but with cash back in performance points, you're close to that $1k mark. Oval concepts crank, wheels and brakes though. And you'd need to spend that $400 in extras.

I guess what I'm getting at is that you can find a handful of lower-end carbon bike retail for not much more. But then you're stuck with what you've got. I can't specify a 170mm crankset without replacing it. If the stock brakes suck, it's $60 to get 105 ones. If you want a $400 wheelset from the start, put that $150 for the basic wheels I had and put it toward the better wheels. More importantly, you do get a larger choice of frame geometries going with Chinese carbon. I'm not limited to 1 or 2 models.

No, not nice try.

You make a post complaining that people are posting without having experience with the subject matter, when the majority of people responding DO have experience.

Contrast that to you, who DOESN'T have any experience.

And now you're going on about wheels? Do you even read the things you're responding to?

There must be a comprehension issue here, surely.

Glad I was "mostly" correct. :)

I have a friend who worked as a production assistant for a major brand several years ago. His primary job was to hang out at the factory in Asia and every night make sure their carbon molds were locked away so the midnight shift didn't use them to make XYZ bikes for the black market. I've taken dozens of factory tours over the years. It's pretty crazy. I bet many people don't realize some of their high-end parts are made in facilities with not much better than dirt floors, dingy lighting, etc. While other factories are like beautiful science labs. It's fascinating stuff.

That in essence was my point. I bought an open mold frame several years ago and built it up with swapped over parts. That often makes sense as the frame itself is far cheaper than most other frame sources. With complete bikes, it's a different story. As you suggest, you can buy an open mold frame and then buy discounted parts online and create a reasonable build. In my experience, that process isn't difficult but it does almost always results in a worse bike than simply buying something from BikeDirect (let alone having to then build the bike from scratch). I've also found that for right around a 25% premium, you can buy a comparable bike from an LBS and get support, fitting and a (often) a test ride. In my experience, that premium is often worth it.

Ever read an industry review of a major studio videogame release that's negative??
From the SUP thread.. ever read a board review in an industry mag that says, "this board sucks"?
Those reviews don't exist...

Thanks quito for sharing your experiences. Interesting stuff!

I don't write many bad reviews. It's just not worth the effort. In most cases I can tell a product is going to be a stinker from a mile away, so why bother? People want to know where to spend their money more than where NOT to.

So here's another look into media. There are products I like because...I just do. I admit sometimes it is hard to find objective faults with those bikes, but I always try to. That gets sticky when I review a product that is genuinely...kick ass. Even when something is worthy of unabashed adulation, that has to be done carefully.

And here's another quirk. I recently attended a media launch of a new bike with a retail of $10,000+. It took two days to fully digest all of the engineering that went into it. It's a marvel of technology, and after that two days, probably should retail for $20,000. But, when I rode it, I was like, meh. It's a bike. We have hit a point where $3000 bikes ride like $6000 bikes ten years ago. And the gap between a $6000 bike and a hyper bike at $10k is --minimal.

Looping this back to the OP's question. I can guarantee you most of these Chinese bikes are nowhere near as sophistated or well made as their big bike, big money counterparts. It's just economics. But it may not really matter. My only hesitation is with safety.