My local dealership is well known to not haggle (toyota). Besides they give good service through the service dept. They also don't do a hardsell with add ons. I'm on my 7th vehicle with them. I'd feel like a real goof buying the car elsewhere and then bringing it to them for service. I likely overpaid a few percent for the vehicle but whatever.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

The last three cars I have negotiated a reasonable price via email, had papers waiting for me to sign, no add on, no warrantees, handed them a check and adios. It takes longer for them to go over all the car features than to do the paperwork.

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

I noticed a couple references in this thread. re. being a downer on extended warranties. Why is that. I've had extended warranties on most of the cars I've bought in the last 20yrs and I came out way way on top 2x and have another 4yrs of full coverage on my truck (8yr/125k mi policy). It's just a matter of making sure that you get an "exclusionary" policy that coves everything except for what is explicitly excluded, like obvious consumable....brake pads and windshield wiper blades.

I once blew up the engine of a Porsche 911 and the aftermarket warranty covered $20k of new engine. A BMW X5 that I really liked, burned thru the couple grand I paid for it's aftermarket warranty in the first year that I owned it.

Modern cars are so complicated that failures are inevitable and repairs are often terribly expensive. The idea of being in a relatively modern car w/o any kind of warranty makes me nervous. I have a Ram 1500 EcoDiesel. First year that the diesel was in a 1/2ton truck and the 2nd year for that engine to be in the US market. The other week I read of a guy's truck needed a "new fuel system" from tank to injectors. The dealer wanted $14k for the work. Jesus Christ. Imagine paying $14k for a fuel system.

Old BMWs are the only thing I really know. You could get a new tank for an old BMW on ebay for $200. New pumps would be $150 and an equal amount for new injectors. You could do all the work yourself, and replacing the tank is no picnic in the 3-series because you have to drop the rear subframe, in a day. That's a $500 job that you could do in your garage because it's all simple and cheap. And that guy got a $14k bill to replace the fuel system on his modern diesel. Holy shit. I'm doing aftermarket warranties. You just gotta know what you're doing and get a good one.

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Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

http://www.automatchconsulting.com/


Tom McParland also writes for Jalopnik and has a lot of good information there.


These services are good if you are looking for a particular car and don't want to call around to dealers within a few hundred miles.


Costco, and other car buying services are a lot like no haggle dealers. It's a much less painful (if you don't like negotiating), but you aren't going to get the absolute best deal. The dealers agree to the prices, so you know they are making some money on it.


CarMax is similar, good cars at slightly elevated prices, but great service. Evidently, getting their bumper to bumper warranty on finicky luxury vehicles can really work out in your favor (so long as you don't mind having your car in the dealership numerous times)

Not sure if my local toyota/mazda/ford dealership is on the brink of modernization of the car dealership but:

1) They don't negotiate, they only provide their best price. But then again they are the only Toyota, Ford and Mazda dealership in 70 miles.
2) They pay their salesmen salaries not commission (no idea how bonuses work).
3) they still do the same warranty stuff but not very aggressive.

I have been really impressed with them and like them. The Subaru dealership, not so much. Place 70 miles away was better, all done over email.

I have heard (never went, above my paygrade) that the Mercedes Dealership is very aggressive in their sales tactics. Whatever it takes to make a sale.

We bought my wife's ford edge from Morrie's. The price was what it was, below the x-plan price we had, below the listed A-plan on the invoice etc. We get the warranty with any new car that has the fancy computer dash. We got the protection too on my wife's car, I don't know if it is her or the protection package, but it looks new in and out after 2 years. Our sales guy was a know nothing old bastard that doesn't understand computers, the walk through on the vehicle controls was painful.

I just bought a 2018 1500 Silverado from a local deal, MSRP $47,XXX, I was out the door at $39,XXX after tax, title, warranty, the non negotiable $950 GM destination fee etc...It is amazing how fast the fees add up. $700 for tax, $100 for doc fee, $950 destination fee, $2,500 for a warranty.

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Pactimo brand ambassador, ask me about promo codes

You're lucky to have your tax that low mine would have been over $2500 on $38k (6.75%). And I know there are states a lot higher than that.

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I miss YaHey

I misrepresented that value, sorry, it should be registration of $700, then yes a 6.5% sales tax on it all...

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Pactimo brand ambassador, ask me about promo codes

He's just an individual who set himself up as a broker. One man band. Used to run a dealerahip so he understands the industry. If you care, I'll get his details.

This x 10
Someone above mentioned Tom McParland - he wrote a Jalopnik piece on this subject, and quantified this. It is possible that at the end of a month or quarter there are tens of thousands, even $100k on the line to reach a certain volume overall or of a certain model. So yeah, if you have the luxury of timing your purchase, you can do really well. It so happened that my 2 sons & I all bought new cars within an 8 month period. We all used the same technique - know exactly what you want, find out who has it within a distance you're willing to travel (for us, that was 100-ish miles, which brought PA, MD, VA & NJ dealers into play), all inquiries & negotiations via email, don't start the process until 3 days before last sales day of the month. It's clear which dealers are close to some major bonus and which aren't. In each case, there were only 1 or 2 each time, all different, even though we all bought the same brand. Got $4k off a $21.5 MSRP car, $4.5k off a $25k car and $6k off a $30k car. Next best price above the 1 or 2 really motivated dealers was always $1k - $1.5k higher.

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Brian

Gonna buy a fast car, put on my lead boots, take a long, long drive
I may end up spending all my money, but I'll still be alive

I didn't see an army. I hadn't car shopped in over a decade, then 3 in 8 months. There were far fewer salespeople around than what I remembered. You have to have some number, because there are always going to be people stopping in to check out a car as part of their research, and some people still buy the old fashioned way, but behavior is shifting.

And further, it seems salesfolk are being trained to avoid car price as a talking point. It is always 'how much do you want to pay per month'. This allows them to get into all kinds of fuckery with financing terms. 72 month loans are now offered most places, and 96 is starting to creep in. Jalopnik just reported that the average US new car monthly payment is $513.

One kind of slimey thing I came across numerous times was that, knowing so many people do their initial price shopping on line, there are a good few dealers who put a price out there that includes every conceivable discount - recent grad, LEO/EMT, active/veteran, etc. In the emails we sent, we always asked for a complete breakdown of the final price by return email, and told them up front we were not eligible for the above (except younger son who was a recent grad).

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Brian

Gonna buy a fast car, put on my lead boots, take a long, long drive
I may end up spending all my money, but I'll still be alive

After reading your post, I just realize that you're right on the number of salespeople seeming to be lower. I didn't really think about it at the time but do recall that ~8-10 years ago there were always sales guys milling around and then when you pull up, one of them would peel off and come outside. Last summer when I was car shopping, there wasn't the usual gang. At the dealer I purchased from, I had to wait for a sales guy to be available.

I agree too on the monthly payment nonsense. Maybe 10 years ago I had a co-worker who had spent several years selling at a BMW dealership. Basically they would pin down what the customer wanted to pay monthly and then work with that. They could get almost anyone into the monthly payment they wanted - even if they had an upside down trade in or terrible credit. I remember being astounded when he explained that a lot of people were in 84 month loans and he wished they could go to 96. People wanted to be in a BMW so badly they didn't care about the terms. Now that seems to be more accepted. When I bought my Volvo, after deciding that I wanted it, the sales guys first question was how much I was looking to pay per month. I actually got confused because it was a weird question when I didn't even know what the price was. Afterwards, the finance manager kept trying to push a longer term loan. The justification was I could always double up on payments and it provided "security" since the minimum payment was lower. Of course what wasn't mentioned was that the interest was higher and they got a bigger kickback.

Fear is how they sell warranties like that. All aftermarket warranties are the same....they figure out how much they are likely to spend on repairs and then charge you more than that. It's a bell curve distribution, so most people will wind up losers, a few will come out ahead. For people buying a car they can't really afford to fix then I suppose it's an insurance policy, but it is "poor-think". Poor people fall into all kinds of traps paying more than richer people, and aftermarket warranties are a perfect example.

I've owned several expensive to repair cars outside warranty...I've never had a major repair bill (knock on wood). If I would have bought a warranty it would have been money down the drain to the tune of several thousand dollars. N=~5.

As to the OP, I would agree that I've noticed a change in the car buying experience. The last time I really had to negotiate to get a price was around 2000. Since then the dealers (new car, upscale) have been up front about what their best price was and they wouldn't move off of it....if you don't want to pay that then they start talking about different vehicles. Most of the bigger dealerships around here have multiple brands so they don't so much care if you buy a Audi or a Jaguar as they sell both through different lots. Some brands are discounted more than others...e.g. we bought an Audi that was several thousand off MSRP, while the Land Rover we also considered was discounted very little. The best thing is to search online....dealerships and owners forums which often have threads describing recent prices paid.

I tried the car broker route once on a new vehicle and it didn't help. They searched the same inventory the dealer salesmen did and had no ability to get a better price on an in-demand vehicle.

Car 1 58.1k CPO
Car 2 50k Carmax

I found Car 2 on carmax that had similar features and miles as Car 1. I sent the carmax link over for Car 2 to the salesman for Car 1. Salesman forwarded the link to the sales manager, they reviewed Car 2 and came back with 55.8k for Car 1, to which I accepted.

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ishi no ue ni san nen | Perseverance will win in the end. | Blog | @nebmot | Strava | Instagram |

More power to you, but our experiences are very different.

You're totally wrong about aftermarket warranties being the same. There's 2 very different types. "Inclusionary" cover only what the contract explicitly includes. These are the cheaper ones and they are junk. It's too easy for the warranty outfit to push back on a claim saying things like "altho lubricated drivetrain parts are covered, the we don't define the inside of your transmission as lubricated. Sorry. If you feel otherwise, we'll set up an arbitration for you to attend on the other side of the country".

The other kind of warranty is "Exclusionary". That type of warranty is more expensive and can be quite effective. They cover everything except for what the contract explicitly excludes, like brake pads, tires, and wiper blades. Since the contract covers "everything", there's no discussion re. this problem or that being covered. I've used the heck out of exclusionary warranties.

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Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

Which brings us to the really awkward part of buying a car now. To figure out what you want you really need to test drive a few cars. I suggest doing that in the middle of the month and preferable on a weekday. That is when the dealers have free time and are not killing themselves to make their monthly numbers. After test driving a car and saying we had to try some different brands before deciding, we had a guy scream at us for wasting his time. Other places we get the new kid who doesn't know squat.

But was the new kid nice? :)

I agree with the test drive being crucial, studies show people - especially millennials - would rather have root canal than go to a dealership. We're trying to change that, but your screaming dude and newbie both reinforce the crazy negative stereotype...

Dealers are always chasing the number. All OEs have a version of 10 day and 20 day reporting, in addition to month-end. The difference in service availability at month end is that they're scrambling to deliver the cars to everyone who doesn't want to lose a few days on their current contract...just this week I had a guy ask if he took the new car 4 days early, would we credit him 4/30ths of his final lease payment...in his mind it was his 45$ and he felt slighted at having to pay twice...

I bought a new truck the same year you did, 2014, and a couple more before that going back to 05. I haven't seen it in this thread yet, but I always just go to eBay, find the truck I want, print it out, and then give the local dealers the chance to price match. Thus far on the last 3 trucks, I got matches within a 60 mile radius.

There are a little disgruntled when I put the paper in front of the salesman, but that is the price. Otherwise I just walk out. In the end of no one would have matched, I just fly to the dealer and drive the truck home. Ebay always has great prices on vehicles(trucks at least, usually Texas) so it is a lot like going to Costco or Amazon for shopping. You can pretty much be guaranteed that this is the lowest price to be had, no research needed.

And as to the extended warranties, I always get them now but for 1/2 the price or less of what their initial offer is. I also found out that my credit union offers these too, so the last one I got for $800 and is a full wrap on my 14 dodge truck to 100k. A lot of cars have 100k powertrain warranties now, so the warranties should be less, but most people dont know that and pay way too much. And make sure it is transferable, usually $50 and it goes with the car. That keeps the value of your used car up there if you can sell cheap protection with it...

Those are really good deals. I love your ebay price comparison effort. I'm totally going to do that next time.

I don't trust the 100k power train warranty. It's easy to get stuck in "that's not power train". Engines are so complex now. Emissions complexity, mechanical valve timing complexity, injector/fuel pump complexity, and finally the incredible electronic complexity, that it's really easy for a dealer or the mfr to say "that's not actually power train". Next thing you know you're replacing fuel pumps and diesel injectors for $10k. My "everything" warranty from Ram expired at 36k miles. And with that my faith that the warranty would be there if I needed it. So after spending a bunch of time checking out after-market warranties, at about 30k mi. I bought one from Ram for $2100. 8yr/125k mi.

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Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/513/129-cars

This will give you quite a bit of insight into the inner-workings of a car dealership. Last year I went into an Audi dealership that had a used Q7 that had been sitting on its lot for almost four months. They were asking $62,000 for a one-year old car with 9,000 miles on the clock that originally sticker for $85,000. I went in on December 28th and offered $55,000 and they went down to $61,000. I told the salesman that I was either going across the street to buy a similar Mercedes or down the street to buy a BMW (reality: I had no intention of buying either and my backup was a new Honda Pilot). The salesman called me the next day and came down to $57,500 and threw in a CPO warranty extension to 100,000miles, a service plan that covered all of my services out to 100,000 miles, and wheel/tire insurance. I took the deal.

Actually the new kid spent the whole time staring at my wife's chest. She was so creeped out by him all cars from that manufacturer were taken off the list.

"what did you think of that car?"

"he was disgusting"

I hear this making 100.00 on a car, but somehow the big car guy in MA (Herb Chamber) is worth 1.4B something doesn't add up...

Dealer principal and a salesman are two differentt things... Dealerships often have a “dealer pack” on all vehicles (amount undisclosed to the lower level employees) which is factored into the cost of the vehicle. The same can be said for F&I products - warranties, GAP insurance, finance, etc. you can have a salesman sell at or below “cost” and the dealership still makes money.

Used margins have diminished greatly over the last several years. The internet and consumers is one issue but the another significant contributing factor are the practices of the company owning the main auction network, Autotrader, KBB, largest shipping network, and dealership billing software. Roughly two decades ago they began selling the data on actual market supply (wholesale and retail), actual sales transaction prices, and consumer demand. I’ll make a long story short, the parent company makes more money when dealers sell more wholesale and this model depends on keeping inventory stocked at current wholesale prices and thin profit margins. More recently, that same data is being collected and sold on new vehicles...

After a few decades margins have diminished and if the dealer doesn't take in a good trade-in or sell F&I products the deal is going to be pretty bleak for the dealer. This explains the state of the used car industry -http://www.autonews.com/...s-luxury-mass-market

The late model used business is way more calculated than people realize and dealers are no dummies. A dealer is not going to undervalue a good car. Yes, many will over price a car with a story and negotiate significantly, but no one is going to give away a desirable / retailable vehicle at the negotiation table. I can’t tell you how many times someone would show me a lower priced comp for negotiation that I was able to locate in transactional history with a poor condition report from the auction.

I worked in independent used for over a decade - five of those years as a general manager.