Frodo is back then? Going to be interesting between him and Gomez in Kona this year, throw Lange into the mix.

And was rewarded with one of the better runs on the day - if he was a female AG. It is surprising to me that his coach thinks 13.1 miles is too long to run. Sanders probably did that to stretch his legs the day before.

Also, what is with Holly Lawrence? To go on record stating that she "hasn't been time trialing much" to explain her weak bike is mystifying to me. Apparently she fails to realize that her job as a pro triathlete is to train to win races. Not to mention this comes off of her bike DNF in Knoxville. She must not give a shit about what her sponsors think.

Based on AT's comments about his previous experience as a runner + his ability going into this race, to me they simply used this race as a check list event. So if this was his longest run that to me tells me A) he isnt ready for 70.3 training volume B) this is going to be a LOOONG process. C)means he's going to eat a lot of humble pies if the approach to race this type of field continues.

I'm not a big fan of throwing athletes into the "deep end" and sinking or swimming....ESPECIALLY if your willing to atleast have a 3ish year window. But his team has a plan and this race was part of it. So in that respects, they are doing what they think is best, and I'm just commenting from the 30k foot coaching prospective. I think one of the biggest issues I see with single sport world class athletes who turn to triathlon is their mindset. Their mindset in how much they use their single sport strength as a "security blanket" in terms of how it plays psychologically. Because they can say all they want about how much they have to work on their other strokes, but almost always they still use their primary sport as a "gauge" of where they are, and almost as motivation. So it'll be very interesting to understand how they perceived the bike effort/goals and how it did or didn't pan out in the race plan.

*And no I'm not talking about him having to have the best bike split* with a shitty run. But I'm talking about as Sean H said in previous page.....to have *that* bike split + that sub par run....what that does to the confidence/mojo. Now obviously anyone with half a brain knew this was going to be a tough ask. But just from human emotions, how much of steep learning curve there truly is here. I think Thomas G talked about just fixing a few things and he'll be good. I don't think it's that easy to fix, as you can't build up a athlete safely/cautiously and have big break throughs. 2-3-4 min drop in time would be a huge deal...But 15-20 mins needing to be dropped? I don't know that they can get that in the time frame they are saying is the dead line based on "in 3 years we decide to continue or not based on if he can make this a career...aka $$".

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I mean let's look at the time line for LS. He finished an IM 8 years ago, turned pro in '13 and it took what 4 years before he finally felt he was having a break through in the swim. 2017 was the 1st real year he was finally having chase pack swims on consistent basis. LS's "break through" event was 70.3 worlds 2014 where he finally realized he could do this. So 5 years into the sport was his "ah ha" moment...

So I think AT is ahead of where LS was initially in the swim (and I think he's already professionally doing steps to improve it long before LS got out of his own way in the swim progression). So then my question becomes, who goes from a not so good runner to even a good runner in the pro ranks in a career projection? So is the pathway for a guy like AT to simply swim with LS and Sebi/uber bikers swim group....bike like hell until they make the catch and then just be another cog in the break to make the break have more fire power to increase time between them and the uber runners who can "sit in and wait" because they can run 2:42 or faster???

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I am not sure he is as bad a runner as all the posts on ST are making him out to be. I THINK he may have just bonked. How often do protour riders ride at 90% FTP for 2:15 preceded by 25 minutes likely at 100% FTP (forget that his first 25 min were swimming, even if he rode 100% FTP for 25 minutes, and then had to ride 90% FTP for 2:15, he'd likely be close to bonking if we asked him to keep riding around 1:20 at 90-93% FTP which is basically what you likely have to run at coming out of T2.

I'm thinking he just bonked by over swimming and then trying to ride his watts. It's probably a simple fix. I think this alone moves him from a 1:36 run down to a 1:20ish assuming he is a 17 min 5K runner. 17 min 5K is a 1:18 half marthoner or a 2:45 marathoner and generally half IM pace tends to be in the middle of those paces, so 1:21 seems reasonable.

There is no way this guy is a tourist 1:36 half IM runner. Not with that engine and at 173 cm and 63 kilios....he has the perfect runner body composition

I would fire that coach. No need to pay when you get just as shitty performance for free.

But Lionel was making money before he had his swim break through, hell, he has had about 3 swim break throughs and was making money before all of them. That is because he had a killer bike/run combo, so he could ride/run into the money way back.

Talansky has no killer anything yet. Many expected him to at least have a killer bike, but more like he got killed by the bike. And not sure what kind of pure runner he is at the moment, but if this was any indication, it may be a mountain too big to climb. Keep in mind he has already spend a decade at the top of pro sports, not sure he would have the patience to go 3 or 4 years to just get to a point where he might make some decent money. Lionel did not have that history, and he has been as hungry as a lion throughout his rise in the sport..

Bonked? Bonking to me is too easy of an justification for a poor race result. But if it's true that this truly was his longest run to date, he didn't bonk...he's just not properly trained for that intensity and duration *at this point in his career*. That's not bonking, that's just poor preparation. Which is why I said, no way in hell would I throw an athlete into that type of environment for his 1st rodeo. I wouldnt need my athlete to take an ass whipping like that to know he's not ready, *yet*.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I just posted in the other thread....he better have the patience. Because he left a very lucrative career for this. So that tells me he did it for his family and his own sanity/happiness. Like you don't leave that type of situation unless you weren't happy. Which is honorable as hell, but then it's scary as hell too because a lot is riding on this....So I think he def is a project....but I find these types of athletes the best to coach....this truly showcases the talents of the coach. This will showcase a hell of a lot more your coaching ability then the coach who's now coaching Frodo or Richard Murray, or the new coach who's going to takeover for the Brownlee Brothers. That is another caveat in all of this.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

1:36 is a bonk for a 17 min 5K runner. A 17min runner should be going 1:21 in a half Ironman (see what I wrote elsewhere).

I am almost certain that he swam at 100% FTP and then biked at 90+ % FTP. Even if he biked 25 min at 100% FTP, he likely might bonk riding 2:15 more at 90+ % of his FTP. Then if you asked him to go at 90% FTP for 1:20 to 1:30 longer there may be nothing in the tank for such a long duration given how hard that athlete did the first 25 minutes. He'd probably be cooked riding for 4:20 if he opened the day with a full gas 100% FTP 25 min TT (I understand if you ride at 100% FTP, for 25 minutes you should be able to go 35 min more at the same pace, but going 4 more hours at 90% probably won't happen). In the case of yesterday's race, it just happened to be 25 min of swim, then biking, then running, but if you told him to hold that effort in that sequence just biking, he may also run out of gas at the 3 hour point.

Keep in mind, protour stages are generally the same length, but they don't keep a moderately hard throttle on continuously like in IM racing.

I really think he's got more potential then most people on ST are making out. I'm almost certain he overcooked the swim badly and then biked decently but was already out of steam. Does anyone know how many calories he took in during this race? 4:20 is long enough that nutrition has some impact.

Eh, but like I said that's not particularly bonking. Like bonking to me is when you are a 1:20 runner and you try and run a 1:12 pace and you finish 1:27.....What you are describing is simply what I responded to you....He's not ready for that type of intensity and duration. So if you want to call that bonking because it excuses his very poor run time...That's fine. I would call it far more not having it in him *yet* to meet the specific demands of competition. Which then you ask yourself, why are you out there *at this point*? If this truly was a "check to see where your at", then it was plainly obvious he's got a long road ahead of him.

His coach said this was his longest run....and he put him in this field?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I missed that he was “gone”.

I'm wondering if he swims say 38 seconds slower (2 seconds per 100m slower, which is a lot easier...probably 5% less effort), and transitions 38 seconds faster (his transitions were tourist pace), he maybe starts the bike in exactly the same position off the same fitnes but instead of swimming 100% FTP he swims 95%. Now he's ready to just cruise around at 90% FTP and not have such an empty tank entering the run because he swam easier.

Suddenly he starts the runs with way better legs and we see more of the 17 min 5K runner.

Maybe this has less to do with not being ready in fitness and more to do with not being ready in terms of what to do in a competition. I'm just not buying that he's a 1:36 half IM runner given the engine the guy has and being a former 17 min 5K guy. He just depleted himself and executed poorly. As Monty said, he won't be the first guy who overcooked the swim and tried to hold his target watts on the bike until he likley could not do it anymore.

I look forward to hearing about his nutrition plan. Also given that he held 1:20 per 100m does anyone know his open 400 LCM time or 800m time. We'd have an idea of how much he overcooked it or not. Lionel just swam at 1 min slower pace per 1500m than his 1500m LCM swim time if that provides any context. Is Talansky a sub 20 1500 LCM guy?

I think what I would argue is that I don't think this was a "bonking" episode though. Like to me "bonking" is when you have a bad day. Like I dont think he actually had a bad day yesturday. He kinda got what he deserved with where he is in his fitness and training levels. Like when race day is your longest run....I'm sorry you don't get to say "bonking" was the culprit. You simply got out classed and weren't ready for the demands of competition. This was way more "in over his head" than "bonking"....He simply wasn't ready to race that caliber of race. And when that happens the over whelming majority of time, you get humbled very quickly.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I'm wondering if he swims say 38 seconds slower (2 seconds per 100m slower, //

I think all this pool swimming and racing is softening your brain Dev (-;. You dont just get to go 2 seconds a 100 slower in an OW race like this. You do that and you lose the feet you were on, the pack you were swimming with, and it ends up being 5 seconds a 100, for the same effort. He probably took so long in transition because he was gassed, running to T1 after swimming is the hardest part of a race. Triathletes know this and are prepared, he probably got the wind kicked out of him and had to take his time to recover..


At any rate this should be his worst race, and it was a good AG time for him. Only way to go is up from here, if not then he is truly done..

I actually don't think the length of the long run has any impact on his race. His long run could be 15K and he's be fine for a 21K if his pacing was right and he had run sufficient weekly mileage. But as Monty pointed out, his pacing was probably way off.

@Monty do we know if he stayed on feet or if he swam solo? It looks like there was a decent group all between 25 and 25:30 but it is hard to say if they were all a tight pack or strung out in singles....and agreed, 2 seconds slower per 100m could mean losing the feet! I wonder if he kicked like a maniac for the final 100m to get the blood flow to the legs to get ready for the run to the bike?

Really? I run a 17 min 5K (about 17:40 or so on a flat course) but I have never been able to bang out a 70.3 run split faster than 1:29. I ran a 1:29:40 yesterday and I was quite worked in fact... I think that you are thinking of the open 1/2 mary times - at least based on what McMillian is showing me.

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

If you are 17:40 then you are not 17:00 (yet?). 17:00 is a 1;18.xx open half marathon and 2:45 marathon pace. Even if the athlete runs the half IM run at open marathon pace (which they should), then we're at 1:22 high on a perfectly executed day on the 17:00 5K, the open half marathan and the half IM run.

Let's put it another way...Frodo ran 1:10 at Oceanside...the guy who he beat in the RUN at the Beijing Olympics (Gomez) ran 1:07 half marathon today. I don't know now different these two courses are, but both these guys are solid at half marathon distance. I am not sure Frodo is a 1:05 open half marathoner (maybe he is). So open half marathon plus 4-5 min for half IM seems to work on a perfectly executed day for faster runners if they don't overswim + over bike.

Dev,

I would caution you in suggesting that AT is a 17 5k'er ability at this current time. In fact that would be stupid to even suggest/assume that's even close to his fitness/ability in 2018. What he did 12 years ago while can give you a picture into what the potential is, I think a far greater likeability is he is not considered a "fast runner" by any means in his current assessment.

It kinda reminds me of the conversations I was having with some people about Alan Webb....Everyone would get all gushing "he's going to dominante the run, he's going to bring his run speed to itu".....I would remind them, his best running days were 5-6, 8 years prior. Just because he did in the past doesn't mean that's going to be where he is and the reality. It really only sets you up for a letdown.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Fair enough. I'm going by Rchung's method that suggests your threshold run speed in terms of meters per second and threshold bike wattage in watts per kilo should be similar

5000 m in 17 minutes is roughly 5 meters per second. So let's translate that to a 60 min threshold which is barely around 4.5 m/s. Now there is no way this guy survives on the protour with a 4.5W per kilo threshold, so I want to beliieve that this guy actually has more potential than only a 17 min 5K. 17 min 5K is just local jogger front of pack. His engine has to be bigger than that. The only question is whether he has biomechanics. His body composition is aready excelllent

The only question is whether he has biomechanics. His body composition is aready excelllent

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and can he handle 3 sports training...and can he reach those speeds training full time in 3 sports....and can he do it in what has been acknowledged ~3 year window to atleast showcase a career can be made. I think the biggest thing this showed and what you and monty mentioned....it's damn hard to put swim-bike-run together on race day if it's not in your blood (IE- converting to a triathlete from something else, especially sorta "late" in the game). If anything this just validates the ability of those athletes, especially when triathletes sorta get tagged with "yeah but your not good at any of the 3 sports".....

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

How long have these pros been training? Like long term