I've been coaching high school track and cross country for many years and am a Daniels advocate and am very familiar with his book and VDOT paces. PM me if you would like some help with this stuff. I cannot answer any of your questions unless I know what you have been doing. You did mention a couple of things in your post that could have you headed to the dark side.

I have had tremendous success with 3 run workouts per week during most of the year with athletes of all level - beginners at 12 minute miles to world champions under 5. During build and peak periods especially, the quality of individual workouts benefits by running fewer times. I'm a big believer in quality running and doing all the "just get the minutes in" workouts on the bike.

Ken

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Ken Mierke
Head Coach, Fitness Concepts
http://www.Fitness-Concepts.com
Author, The Triathlete's Guide to Run Training

To make a real break through on the run you need to run a lot - 3 times a week just won't do it. No matter what the quality of those sessions are it's just not enough.

JD's book is excellent and if you followed his plan you would improve a great deal. In the beginning his VDot training paces are fairly demanding. IOW your VDot number base on race performance may not have the fitness base to sustain his suggested training pace. As you get fitter you will naturally slot right into where he says you should be. Try it out. Adopt a single sport focus for 4 or 5 months and see your running take off. Bike and swim as well during this time. The alternative is spending a season running 3 times without seeing substantial gains.

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"Anyone can work hard when they want to; Champions do it when they don't."

These are my opinions, I'm not a qualified coach.

I've got both books and am using Jack Daniels program now. Gale's book seems to be aimed at the first or second year triathlete that needs structure but isn't specifically targeting any one sport.

My suggestion is to use Jack's red or blue plan for your run training while using Gale's structure for the swim and bike. Make sure you separate the quality days from eachother by at least 36 hours. Yes, you will be running 5 days a week but the extra 2 days will be easy running days that will help build technique, endurance and durability. They only need to be 30 minutes long. If you feel this is too much running, you can allways back off and keep the quality sessions like you suggested.

Like you I am run challenged. Currently I am going through the Marathon A program to peak for an April marathon. After that I will take a 2 week unstructured training break and move into the blue running plan aiming to peak in early August.

jaretj

I am not a coach nor do I play one on TV or on the Internet.

I know some folks who do just fine running only 3x weekly, which technically is supposed to be enough to generate improvement, provided the right amount of quality/quantity is included. I also know some folks who run 3x weekly and don't improve a lick.

I think it just comes down to individuality and possibly the athlete's experience.

If someone was running 3x weekly and not seeing improvement, it could be they have been doing the same thing for too long, and the body needs changes to the stimulus to generate improvement. The stimulus could be changing up the nature of the 3 runs or it could be shortening one of them and adding a 4th run. You never know unless you try it.

But, the key thing is that no matter what you are doing, you WILL need to change it periodically, IMO, because we get used to pretty much anything.

I was of the opinion that if I ran more than 4x weekly that it was a recipe for injury. I was wrong. Now I run 5 and 6x weekly and I feel better and my performance is better. But what's key is how those runs are structured. I also feel that for me running more frequently has created "tough legs," which may just be increased muscular endurance, because whenever I run, I can do the quality work that I need to do.

Right now I'm running 5x weekly as:

M: Strides

W: Tempo

F: Easy endurance

S: Brick

S: Long, with tempo finish

OK, so I'm training for a marathon, too (3 weeks), but I've run this frequency for a few years, but the new thing now is including tempo work twice a week. It's working just fine, and I'm getting faster. I am also biking and swimming on top of this.

Daniels' book is great in terms of giving guidance for where you "might" be, but it is meant for pure runners. Nevertheless, there are wonderful things in there to know about running, and if you want to spend a block of months with a run focus, this is THE book, IMHO.

But for your typical age grouper with a full time job, trying to do Daniels' run training in its pure form as PART of a triathlon training program would be too much. So you scale it back as needed.

Probably the BEST side effect of running more frequently for me is that bricks just aren't the big deal they once were. When you're used to running practically every day, having one of those runs off the bike is just not the big deal it once was.







M

I have had tremendous sucess favoring run frequency, TREMENDOUS!

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

IANAC: I used to run 3 times a week. Now I run 6 times a week. 6 weeks after making that change I took 2:30 off my 10k PR. That is huge.
Key points:
- The hard runs are to be hard, but more importantly, the easy runs really have to be easy.
- Get off the pavement as much as possible.
- Run after each bike session, if possible.

For you specifically, I would add two short (up to 40min) runs off the bike each week. These runs start very easy and may build to a tempo finish, depending on how you are feeling. You could then have your 2 stand-alone BT runs each week, add a third recovery run, then top it off with 2 runs off the bike. Whamo, done.

AP

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"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS

"- The hard runs are to be hard, but more importantly, the easy runs really have to be easy."

Yes, very important. I should have said that. My training log has mostly zone 1/2 runs and a bunch of zone 4 runs.

jaretj

Especially us OCD/push-til-you-puke triathletes, we tend to make our easy runs harder than they should be and as a result, our hard runs not hard enough.

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"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS

Just to confirm, you are claiming you have coached World Champions who run sub 5s on 3 days running a week for most of the year?

What pace were they running before they started the 3X a week program?

There are two things you must remember when setting up a tri training program:
1. Most importantly is triathlon is a sport just like running or any other sport. You need to train as a triathlete. That is, there are cross benefits from cycling and swimming which will help your running to some extent. On the other hand runners (there sole sport) will have to tailor there training to just running and they will require more run workouts then triathlete's.
2. Depending on your level in the sport, increased frequency in each sport will reap greater benefits, provided you have sufficient recovery time. The greater your fitness and your ability to recover, the higher the frequency of training in each discipline.

So in your case, you need to evaluate your fitness level and your ability to recover and then develop a training schedule that fits your needs. Any other given advice, unless it takes this into consideration, is only guess work.

You don't have to train as a triathlete 12 months a year--- You could take a month or two and focus on running. Do whatever running plan you want to try and just add in one or two short and easy bikes and swims a week to maintain basic fitness in those sports.

One thing I would not do is try to combine a real running program and a real triathlon training program--- Each program has a balance of hard and easy workouts and you are at risk for overtraining if you add a bunch of running days to your schedule without backing off cycling and swimming.

I know this is obvious, but I have to say it--- The hard days aren't the days that make you faster. You grow faster when you take time to recover after a hard workout. You need a proper balance of hard days and recovery days to improve.

-Marc

I've had a lot success with increasing frequency. I think you could do it two ways: 1- (as suggested above) use the Daniel's as your key/base program + add bike and swim from Bernhardt as time allows. 2- You use Bernhardt as your base but add a run after nearly every bike.

I have done #2 for the past couple of years. Since I bike 3-4 times a week, if you run after the bike nearly every time you will quickly and easily get to 5+ times running a week. These serve as a lot of the 3, 4, 5 milers that are easy, recovery types of runs in running-only programs.

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Suffering on the the bike is always more fun than suffering on the run.

Me too. The single best thing I have ever done as a triathlete. It's like discovering the secret that real runners knew all along.

I had clients win overall female (by 3:01) and junior male (by :29) at ITU worlds on three runs per week.

Ken

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Ken Mierke
Head Coach, Fitness Concepts
http://www.Fitness-Concepts.com
Author, The Triathlete's Guide to Run Training

Hi KDW,

One I started coaching when he was 14 years old and I don't think had raced a triathlon before I started working with him. I'm sure he'd never run under 6 and now he's well under 5. Of course, 18 year olds are faster than 14 year olds, but he is the fastest running junior triathlete in the world running 3 times per week all triathlon season.

The other was in the 6:30 range in Olmypic distance races and is now under 6. Her biggest week this year was 38 miles and beat the amateurs badly.

There is more than one good way to train an athlete. Some may have success with high run frequency with some athletes. I like my runners to have fresh legs for all qualify run workouts. I think this makes for better workouts and fewer injuries.

Remember that Daniels coached primarily elite, college-aged, full-time runners. That is an entirely different prospect than training a triathlete to run 10K off the bike.

Ken

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Ken Mierke
Head Coach, Fitness Concepts
http://www.Fitness-Concepts.com
Author, The Triathlete's Guide to Run Training

At what Olympic distance race has she averaged sub-6 pace for the run (considering that treasure island is actually 9.6k)?

You're right, when I get out the calculator, she ran 6:07 at Treasure Island if it was 9.6K, and 6:06 at Worlds. Regardless, she had a great year and is running faster than ever on 3 runs per week.

I'm not trying to start an argument. If other coaches want to have their athletes run more frequently, I have no problem with that. However, many athletes have had tremendous success with lower run frequency and higher bike frequency.

Ken

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Ken Mierke
Head Coach, Fitness Concepts
http://www.Fitness-Concepts.com
Author, The Triathlete's Guide to Run Training

I'm not a coach but I'll offer my 2 cents, since I've done both. When running exclusively, I was running 6 days/week and topping out at 65-70 mpw when marathon training. Since moving to triathlon it's been 3-4 runs/week anywhere from 30-50 mpw. My running has not suffered.

A typical week now includes 1 speed workout (track/tempo), 1 long run (17-22 miles), 1 medium-long (11-16 miles) and usually 1 other run of 8 miles or so. On a good week I might throw in a 4-5 mile recovery run.

IMHO you can do well on 3-4 runs/week, but I believe at least part of my success is attributable to periods of single sport focus leading up to that

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"Knowledge is good" - Emil Faber

Does she run more than 3X a week while not in season? It would seem like 38 miles is a heck of a week if not.

Yes, I will have some trithletes run more frequenly (4-5 per week) durng base period. I believe that, when the intensiy goes up, the run frequence should go down.

Ken

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Ken Mierke
Head Coach, Fitness Concepts
http://www.Fitness-Concepts.com
Author, The Triathlete's Guide to Run Training

Ken,



I just had this discussion where I work today. (I love working at a running store) The fact that too many people get caught up in what 'other' people say and that their word is law. I love switching it up and finding what works best for me AND my athletes. I tend to deal better with less mileage/day and more frenquency early on to adapt, while the mileage increases, dropping a run while increasing my run length to stay more fresh for quality workouts. I also know some people that, if they miss one day, they complain about not getting the traininig. Everyone is different! Smart coaches/athletes will learn that sooner than later. I love how you buck the trend and do what works for your athletes. You don't need to defend yourself or your training to anyone, that's what's great about it. Hope to see you back in the Chicago area sometime soon! Take care

Eric