I think this is a bigger group than people realize. Just like in marathon, many people are doing these longer triathlon, IM's in particular, to finish. Time and place does not matter to them.

People in this group don't really care about the drafting rules in particular. They are NOT trying to purposfully gain an advantage. They likley did most of their bike prep in groups or organized century rides where riding in a group is OK. So they come across a nice group out on the bike course in an IM that is going their pace and they hook up with them to share the joy/pain together. What's so wrong with that?

My sense was that this was part of the problem with the USTF drafting rule enforcement that WTC/IMNA had was, they were throwing the book at the people back here and it was not going over well.

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Yeah, I tend to agree what does it matter for BOP people.

I think the problem is... Where do you draw the line?

Maybe what we should have is cutoff times for people who are in contention for a Kona slot or something. What happens is you have an "End of the MOP - Front of BOP" Referee that follows a line of time that goes from when it's deemed that noone realistically can come back and win an AG posiiton or something.

Thing is, where would this line start? When would it start? 40 miles into the back after say 3hrs? No clue... but I'm sure it could be calculated I'm sure.

Just a silly idea.
Trae

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Trae McCombs
TSR - Sponsored by the Masses. Racing for the hell of it.
Ironman Finisher 2005 -- 14:09:18

i think they do. but not enough people care enough to become an official (usat/gtg/or otherwise) so there just aren't enough to go around. so come the run, they have to pull some off the bike to marshall the run. or one would think. since i don't recall seeing any on the run in lp (spectator) or madison (participant) but i'm sure they are there. somewhere.

just my $0.02 CDN



k

I agree that a ~7hr IM bike split person should not be given a drafting penalty from the standpoint that they are just out to have a good time and finish. It is quite an accomplishment for anybody to "race" for 14+ hours. My main concern would be safety. At a certain point it becomes very dangerous to have a bunch of people cruising along only inches or even a few feet apart while in their aerobars with bar-end shifters in a state of delirious fatigue. Not to mention the fact that many of these people are new to the sport and probably have rather poor bike handling skills compared to roadies or triathletes who race in ITU-style draft legal racing. While I think the camraderie is great, safety should be the most important aspect of anybody's race day. Thererfore, it is important for the rules to be followed and therefore enforced across the board. Also, if you are 60 years old and fighting for a Kona spot, then you shouldn't have to have your race marred by drafting all around you.

Ahhh, good point about the bike handling skills and delirium setting in for those who aren't well trained.

Keeping them apart can be more about saftey for the BOP crew than any sort of time savings.

I would agree with you Flanagan

Trae

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Trae McCombs
TSR - Sponsored by the Masses. Racing for the hell of it.
Ironman Finisher 2005 -- 14:09:18

Technically, all racers are to obey the rules, regardless of FOP or BOP. My point isn't about pacelines, just BOP stuff.

I was at the Peterborough Half in 2004, racing. My hubby was spectating and saw the LAST cyclist(on a relay team to boot!) come in. The runner met the cyclist at the in/out.

Well, the OAT offical took a dislike to that and started screaming and holding onto the guys bike. Really mean, wouldn't let go of the guys bike and overall, gave the spectators a really bad impression of her and OAT.

Ok, yes, they should have exchanged the chip at the bike rack BUT, they were the LAST, LAST people in the race. What are they interferring with?

So yea, if it was FOP going for placing, I could understand but BOP in LAST place? Just go with it. Bah, OAT. (oh wait, that's awhole other can of worms!) (OAT is like USAT governing body)

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Proud member of the Guru Cartel, EH!

Fleck....what the F*****?

There is no reason why BOP dudes should be allowed to draft. They deserve penalties and DQ's just like FOP or MOP. Hammer them with penalties if it is deserved. Essentially, drafting is equivalent to cutting the course, cause you are doing less work to get to T2.

As someone mentioned, in sports you have fouls and intentional cheating. Its one thing to get caught in a situational foul for which you get nailed with your 4 min (or whatever GTG uses) cause you were mometarily inattentive (got into the draft zone but did not pass in 15 seconds or slid back out cause you could not pass the dude in front).

But if you are intentionally violating the rules to gain an advantage and do less work, to me there is no difference between this and cutting the course. To me, these dudes are not finishers, they cheated.

1. The challenge for all involved is where do you draw the line on this. I KNOW that a blind eye is being turned on some of ths stuff at some events, but where/when do you start doing this. Is this fair. I am not really sure.

2. Ah yes, the overzealous race offcial or volunteer: My best anectdote on this was at Ironman Canada a few years ago when a Transition Area Volunteer was not letting Dave Scott, Graham Fraser and myself back into Transitions after the swim start. She was very firm and adamant - NO ONE GETS IN. Steve King was actually paging Both Dave and Graham over the PA at the time as they were wanted tio do some TV commentary at the finish to the swim. She finally relented, but it did take some convincing



Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

<<To me, these dudes are not finishers, they cheated.>>

Agreed. Take it to the extreme. What do you tell the guy who crosses the line at 12:05am when he sees a 'drafter' celebrating happily in the shiny new finishers t-shirt & medal.

Everyone gets the same title when they cross the finish line within the cutoff regardless of how long it took them.
MIke Rielly says it with the same enthusism, "You are an Ironman" to the first and last.
It equalizes all of us that finished the event.

I say it matters how the BOP, MOP, and FOP compete. People of character know its just as important to play by the rules at the back, as well as the front. But, I observed more character in the middle and back of the pack last Saturday than I did at the front. (That statement will get me in trouble for sure.)

You asked ... BOP Pacelines - do officials really care?

Perhaps a better question is ... "BOP Pacelines - SHOULDofficials really care?"

Maybe there could also be a way of signifying yourself as "non-competitive", and then you could be allowed to ride side-by-side with a friend or group, etc. Be designated as "finish or non-finish", sort of like taking a pass/fail course.

Granted, some will say it goes against everything the IM stands for, and if you can't do it on your own, don't do it ... and that is also my preference ... but, facing facts, there are definately two types of "racers" on the course.

Perhaps take the officials and place almost all of them in the areas where the folks that are competing for something more meaningful than satisfaction, and eliminate the drafting that takes place there.

While I can understand that "cheating" not be tolerated anywhere. It might be a better use of resources to place the officials in the areas where "it matters most".

We pop off now and then about the 16:55 finisher ... but really, no one outside of that person, cares about their performance, whether they received a penalty for drafting or not. When folks talk about drafting, they are referring to the drafting that gives certain competitors an unfair advanatge over the others they are directly competing with. That is a higher priority.

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Each evening offers judgement. --

Exactly. I see no reason why a BOP dude deserves a free ride into T2, just cause he is out longer. Those are the rules, and everyone needs to play by them, regardless of coefficient of pain-suffering-misery.

Hammer everyone with 30 minute penalties and suddenly the packs will break up, both at the front and the back. Fleck, although you are a fast guy, perhaps you think that BOP dudes do not care about times, but trust me, each and every person cares about times. I get to train with several of these folks every year and they care about breaking 16, 15, 14 hours. And if you are a 15:30 dude and you get three drafting penalties at 30 min each you are in trouble.



Dev

This one's easy. They should care. BOPers can still be fighting for the podium in older age groups.

I agree Dev. And, like I said in another thread, there may be some FRONT of the pack older AGers mixed in with what everyone is calling the MOP and BOP. Those podium spots and Kona slots are just as important.

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com