I read about a race in Europe once where the penalty was running around an 800 meter loop before you begin the marathon. That seems like more of a punishment to me.

With regards to Natascha Baddmann this past weekend, she has been on both sides of the issue. In 96 she was chased down by a PNF who was able to regroup in the sin bin beforre starting the marathon.

Interesting. And that's my point - did the stand down give her an edge before running the marathon? Considering all the comments about digestion, it made me wonder if she might have had a harder time running if she didn't get the rest.

I thought this topic might generate more comments.

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I agree that the stand-down and then the Penalty box solution is "Better" than a retro-active time penalty. Imagine the silliness if on Saturday Natascha Badmann is running towards the finish-line in "first place" and then Mike Reilly checks his watch and has to tell the crowd, that is NOT the race winner!

That being said, I think someone should be looking into the length of the penalty box stay. How did they come up with the 4 min time? How many people will go on to run to victory after the 4 min. sit down penalty? Is it truely a penalty or in some weird and reverse thinking way in an event like this, does it actually help the athlete? Logistically, it's a bit harder to set up, but one way to make it fair and clear penalty, is to make the athlete work MORE ie run during the penalty - have them run a 1K or whatever penalty loop - that would be both a time and an energy penalty.

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Now that's what I mean - maybe a stand UP penalty, or ride a stationary bike or something, not just just sit down, chill out, drink, etc.

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That being said, I think someone should be looking into the length of the penalty box stay. How did they come up with the 4 min time? How many people will go on to run to victory after the 4 min. sit down penalty? Is it truely a penalty or in some weird and reverse thinking way in an event like this, does it actually help the athlete? Logistically, it's a bit harder to set up, but one way to make it fair and clear penalty, is to make the athlete work MORE ie run during the penalty - have them run a 1K or whatever penalty loop - that would be both a time and an energy penalty.

Fleck[/reply]

I would be all for having to run penalty loops. None of this sit in a nice tented area with lots of water to cool yourself off and nice chairs to relax. Screw that. It is suppose to be a penalty, not a resort. They should adopt the penalty loop like they do in biathlons. THAT would make it much more interesting. And the penalty should be done on the run. It is called a penalty for a reason.
You don't think Natascha benefitted from sitting/stretching and cooling off in the sin bin?

Seems fair to me. I mean no one rushes any of the athletes through transition. So, if you felt that a 4 minute rest would help you then by all means pull up a chair or walk your first mile.

Just because Natasha sat in the sin bin while Jones was on the road doesn't mean that 4 minutes helped Natasha.

Look at it from the other perspective. If Jones had been rested for 4 minutes would she have been able to hold off Natsha?

I did the 2001 Austria Ironman and they had that penalty system. Didn't talk to anyone who suffered that fate but it did get people's attention! It was a very hot race and it would have been about 10 times worse than sitting in a penalty box for 4 min. I don't think they still do it that way. Mark Allen would be the guy to ask about the pros/cons (being intimately connected with IM Austria).

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FIST Certified Fitter
Salt Lake City, Utah

The Great White North tri just outside of Edmonton (1/2 IM) uses a penalty loop. Caught drafting once, stand down to get your bib marked, then as you leave T2 you get sent to the penalty loop (800m).

800 meter penalty? How come us slower guys get penalized more than the fast ones!

The aero benefit of drafting at 18 mph is a lot less than the aero benefit at say 23 mph. So we "gain" less by cheating and have to pay a longer penalty?!?

:)

If the stand-down helps people rest up and get ready for the marathon, why doesn't everybody take an extra four minutes in T2?



Just a thought.

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i say definitely switch to the 800-m run. to me, it makes way more sense than an "enforced rest." i have yet to see any real arguments against the 800m, but it's now a few people who have won hawaii after resting in the penalty box.

-mike

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I'm not saying that it helps everyone, I'm just questioning if the penalty fits the "crime" - making someone rest during a long endurance event. Yes, there is obvioulsy a time loss, but I think there is a definite benefit, especially when it's hot out. Yes, others could do the same thing, but there's an urgency to not "waste" time when you're in a race.

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I guess most would agree that it ends up costing less than 4 minutes in the finish time, but more than if there was no penalty (you don't "gain" by waiting).

My feeling is that this really should be reaserched more. As another said, to answer your question - there is a general urgency to keep moving in a triathlon. However, in such a long event as an IM, I do wonder if the 4 minute break may be a help and not a hinderance. The historical data should be looked into ie look at the penalties and what happned afterwards( At IMH we now have atleast three incidences of athletes sitting out penalties and then going on to win the race). There should also be some look at the physiological stand-point, and this may be where the real answer lies - does the rest help?

That's all I am asking, that it's looked into a bit more. How did they come up with the 4 minutes in the first place? 4 Minutes in an IM race is considered a "close" race and a 4 minute lead/deficet can eveporate like that, if one athlete blows and the other keeps moving along at a steady pace.

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Just curious: Do some IM events enforce the stand-down on the road? That, to me, makes more sense, if what we're concerned about is whether the PB lets people rest up. That way, everybody runs the same distance, as opposed to making the cheaters run an extra half-mile.

OTOH, that means a ref is stopped on the side of the road with the athlete, and is unable to do his/her other job, which is to stop the other scumsucking drafters ....

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Like what you read here? Read more at Crosseyed and Painless or Duathlonblog.

"We used to run Bstone prototypes into 3-foot-high cement walls to see what it took to bend them. If that sounds like crazy-good fun, it wasn't. Everybody wanted to watch, nobody wanted to ride, so we took turns."
--Rivendell Reader 36

It aughta be 6 or 8 minutes for IM.

Standard penalty for HIM's I've done (not that *I* got a penalty) is 4mins.

(For Oly's and Sprints it is 2 mins.)

Why would it also be 4 mins for double the distance? Makes no sense...



And I agree with those who suggest a penalty loop, 800m sounds good to me, at least that way there is a physical and a time penalty, not a nice cozy rest.

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float , hammer , and jog

Seems fair enough to me. At it's most basic, if penalized, I'm forced to wait four minutes, whether that helps or not. If I'm doing everything legal, I always have the choice to wait four minutes to recover, cool off, etc.

interesting. If it were that long, would Michellie have pulled it out?

By the looks of the pictures and video I saw on ionmanlive, there was a lot of drafting going on, not just Badmann. Insidetri.com even references Tim DeBOom "sitting in the pack".

and then there's the picture of David James Elliott (the "JAG" actor) - who's that women sitting right on his wheel ( It doesn't look like Ironclm, checking out the "view"!)

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It used to be 3 min.

Even though GCT events don't use USAT rules anymore, I thought it would be interesting to check the time penalty rules and see where the 4 minute number possibly came from:

[/url]3.7 Time Penalties.

1. 
   
   In General. A time penalty may be imposed for a violation of any Section of these Rules in which a time penalty is expressly authorized. In the event that a participant is assessed a time penalty, the applicable time period shall be added to that participant's aggregate finishing time in calculating official race results. Except as otherwise provided in Section 5.10B of these rules, time penalties shall be cumulative and a participant may be assessed more than one time penalty for violations of the same rule.
2. 
   
   Variable Time Penalties. A "variable time penalty" as used in these Rules shall mean a time penalty that varies in accordance with the distance category of the event. The variable time penalty for each of the distance categories shall be the following:

Distance Category 1st Offense 2nd Offense 3rd Offense Short/Intermediate 2:00 minutes 4:00 minutes Disqualification Cycle course less than 50k 2:00 minutes 4:00 minutes Disqualification Long 4:00 minutes 8:00 minutes Disqualification Cycle Course 50k-100k 4:00 minutes 8:00 minutes Disqualification Ultra 6:00 minutes 12:00 minutes Disqualification Cycle course greater than 100k 6:00 minutes 12:00 minutes Disqualification

[/url]3.7A. Time Penalties for Elites.

A "variable time penalty" as used in these Rules shall mean a time penalty that varies in accordance with the distance category of the event. The variable time penalty for each of the distance categories shall be the following:

Distance Category Time Penalty in Minutes Short/Intermediate Cycle course less than 50k 1:00 Long Cycle course 50k-100k 2:00 Ultra Cycle course greater than 100k 4:00

1. 
   
   First Violation – Time Penalty. A variable time penalty shall be imposed for the first violation of these Rules in which a time penalty is expressly authorized.
2. Second Violation. For a second violation of these Rules the athlete shall be disqualified from the event and shall be required to immediately withdraw from the race and vacate the course.

I found it interesting that the USAT elite penalty for first offense in ultra is shorter then age groupers, but that 2nd offense is a DQ as opposed to an additional time penalty. Correct me if I'm wrong, but GCT has a 2nd time penalty before DQ.

I sure the hell wouldn't like an 800 meter running penalty. Running the course is enough of a penalty for me. :-) Maybe being required to stand or walk around for the 4 minutes would be a harsh enough penalty.

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Tri-ing for a cure.

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