I saw that and agree with you.

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Me too. These rules are much more reasonable.

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I should say that it works well in this situation - good riders, who know what they are doing and not to many people on the road. When you get the huge packs, I think any rules go right out the window!

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

And this from InsideTri -

"Badmann had to overcome a four-minute penalty for drafting, one of the few given to the pros on a day when several would complain loudly of the flagrant pack riding."

Its a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation for WTC. Do you (WTC) let somebody else (USAT) provide the refs, and maybe make calls you don't agree with? Or do you provide your own set of refs (GTG), and then maybe have to listen to the other side, from those who feel there weren't enough calls of 'intentional' drafting?

Another point for debate - why not use drafting tactically? Push the envelope out on course, and ride a little (or a lot) inside the draft zone. If you don't get stood down, you've gained (and as an age grouper, increase your odds by hiding in the middle of a big pack, because they can't stand down the whole pack). If you do get stood down, then you can hammer right into transition, knowing that you can sit out your 4 minutes by drinking, eating, hitting the portapotty, loosening up the legs (all allowed if you bring in stuff yourself), before hitting the run?

< Dede Griesbauer is leading the race right now at about 25 miles. Michellie just behind, at 10 meters or so. they've come up on a pair of legally riding pro men. Dede gets within a half a wheel of overtaking the man in second position, and this pro man just speeds up, to keep her from overtaking (he then commences a pass of the pro man in first position).>

<legally, by USAT rules, Dede's just gotten a penalty. this is the hole in USAT's rules. and in its execution of the rules. some AG man's wife, on the back of the motorcycle, an official but not a non-racer, hands this penalty out.>

Sorry, this wouldn't happen under USAT rules--assuming that the pros mentioned were riding under elite rules, as they should be. Dede would have committed a stagger violation by even entering the male pro's draft zone. If she were properly positioned, she would not have been penalized for failing to overtake the male pro.

Bear in mind also that the stagger rule WAS dreamed up by "some AG man's wife"--Karen Smyers if I recall correctly. (To be honest, I don't know if Karen's husband competes, but I don't think he's a pro.) It was also approved by the pros.

David

"Sorry, this wouldn't happen under USAT rules"

this happens every weekend under usat rules, in 99% of the racing, which is age-group. it also would've happened in this race at the elite level, were USAT here, as the hawaiian ironman has in recent years raced under a set of rules that is much closer to those the rest of the (elite) world races under.

the stagger rule is probably not long for the world. USAT's elites have marginalized themselves by setting up a set of rules that is completely different than anything any other country uses. it would be news to me, btw, if mike king (karen smyers' husband), or his wife, thought up the stagger rule. my best memory is that someone else thought it up.

my point, in any case, is about intent. i'm commenting on USAT's stubborn stand against considering intent and proactivity.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Unfortunately I don't see a way for them to enforce an "intent" rule. Adding an item saying essentially "it's not a drafting penalty if you enter the draft zone and the other person accelerates away" turns it into a judgement call on the official. Not that it's different from the other judgement calls, but I think the officials are already calling it this way in practice.

Regarding the "dropping back out of draft" idea that is just asking for a disaster. Then all you would have to do is tail someone, slightly surging in and out of the draft zone for best effect (it's easy to accelerate by 0.2mph when drafting). This would then be within the rules, and if caught they could just complain that they were getting calf cramps and couldn't quite complete the pass. Coordinating something like that with two people not-quite-drafting legally would be pretty trivial if both are watching for the officials.

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<this happens every weekend under usat rules, in 99% of the racing, which is age-group. it also would've happened in this race at the elite level, were USAT here, as the hawaiian ironman has in recent years raced under a set of rules that is much closer to those the rest of the (elite) world races under.>

Agreed, if USAT AG (or WTG) rules were in effect, she would have been (was) in violation. (I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that she would or wouldn't have been penalized in either case.) The last time I worked IMH was 1999, when stagger was still in effect. It works very well for the pros as long as AG athletes riding to different rules don't enter the mix.

<it would be news to me, btw, if mike king (karen smyers' husband), or his wife, thought up the stagger rule. my best memory is that someone else thought it up.>

It could be an old official's tale; I didn't have it first hand. i was actually reacting to the non-racer-wife-of-AG-athlete description of the official. I've known bad officials who were unmarried excellent male athletes and excellent officials who were female non-athlete spouses. It's a matter of experience and judgment. Being a competitor offers a perspective, but it doesn't guarantee that the individual will use it, nor is it the only useful perspective.

<my point, in any case, is about intent. i'm commenting on USAT's stubborn stand against considering intent and proactivity.>

I am uncomfortable with "intent" for a couple of reasons. First, I don't know what anyone else is thinking. More important, it doesn't necessarily matter. One can gain unfair advantage without meaning to.
On this particular rule, I am mostly concerned about people bouncing in and out of the zone repeatedly. That could happen intentionally or because there's enough draft even out of the zone at speed to require concerted action to avoid being pulled into it. It doesn't matter what the athlete meant to do; unfair advantage is unfair advantage.

I'm not sure what you mean by "proactivity." If you mean yelling at pelotons to break them up, maybe that would be helpful. In general, though, the mere presence of a motorcycle with a person in a red or B&W striped shirt on the back is pretty effective. Not necessarily a lasting effect, but I'm not sure yelling would be either. If you mean doing more to educate athletes, we really are trying. People have to listen, though.

I've never worked pros riding AG rules for money. I don't know what I would have done in the situation you described. I can tell you some of the things that would have gone through my mind, though. Perhaps foremost, did Dede gap Michellie significantly because she got a pull? Did she quickly get legal again? Did she have sufficient speed to have completed the pass legally before he accelerated? Pros are held to the highest standards of behavior and get very little slack from me, but I can say that I have never cited an AG athlete for a single failed pass as long as they at least reached the point of pulling out to start around.

By the way, I am curious about what additional exception you recommended.

David

I agree that this rule needs to be cleared up. Racing at Shreveport Nationals last year drafting and passing was rampant on the bike. I was one of the slower swimmers moving up on the bike and had two guys who were riding at a similar pace to me. I was behind them (waaay out of the draft zone btw) and we come up on a big pack. First guy goes to pass the last guy in the pack and right as he's pulling alongside the guy being pased stands and pulls away making his own pass and putting the original passer in a penalty situation. He got a penalty for this, and it was CLEARLY out of his control unless he got into a sprinting dual with this guy.

We asked the refs at this race about this rule repeatedly as my girlfriend at the time was worried as guys just hat when women pass them usually accellerating and leaving the women in the penalty position. This ref said that she had a "responsibility" to complete the pass and would definetely get a penalty. He said there was no arguing and couldn't seem to see the problem, there were a lot of angy people at the pre-race meeting;) Most refs I know say it's up to them to decide at the time of the penalty and most of the time they won't give one out unless the person repeatedly enters the draft zone yo-yoing in and out, which is what this rule is meant to enforce.

It needs to be somehow clarified though...

Or what about the guy who when you pass sucks on your wheel recieving a penalty but then rockets back around you again then pulls up making you brake to drop out of his zone. You then repass and he does it again over and over. Yes he gets mulitple penalties but his actions interfere with your riding as well. A guy did this to me at a race, after the 5th time or so the ref who was riding next to us the whole time later tells me that I didn't pull back enough before repassing. I argued with her asking why the other rider wasn't given a penalty or verbal warning as I was literally stuck behind him. She claimed that she couldn't read his number but that he should have been disqualified, but again no number... Then they ask why I didn't just make a strong pass and get away, well I did but it's pretty easy to hang on sucking wheel and this guy did. And then they ask why I was near this guy in the first place if I was faster than him, oh that would be being waved off course and reentering the course right behind this guy.