Me thinks thou art a s#!t disturber.

J

If I'm not mistaken the newest test uses a 2-dimensional protein gel to detect EPO and then to seperate endogenous and exogenous forms, or that's the idea anyway.

SO if there is a new improved test that was not in use when Beke tested, then that will also catch him IF he did it. Sure hope the guy is clean, otherwise he will be having a lot of sleepless nights before the big races....I'm giving him the benifit of the doubt. Wonder if they tested at Monaco this weekend????

That's good to hear, considering (if I'm not mistaken) that the previous tests just tested the level of EPO and not deteting whether or not there was a foreign substance (directly) in the body.



Eric

Even though I agree with you, I find the double standard quite amusing.

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

>>>>I find the double standard quite amusing<<<<

What?

he wasn't clear by the germans, but by the belgian federation.
he didn't go away with it on a technicality but by showing that looking at protein markers could lead to false positive.

right now some people are looking at protein quaternary structure which could lead to a very reliable test for EPO without looking at protein markers...

To answer mac, re. SAC's comment, I think the double standard is pretty obvious...

Ya, I knew it was the Belgian federation, my faulty memory kicking in. As for the test, has every EPO test been done this way, and if so, why do their results still stand? I mean if one guy can prove that it doesn't work, how can the others who tested positive be held to the faulty test??Maybe I'm missing something here, come on Cliff Claven, explain it to me so that a moron can understand, because all this testing protocol has me feeling like one....

not sure. you still have to prove your body produces these protein markers...but then Berasategui was racing this weekend...and won..

She almost beat Sedi too ;-)

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

Jay at Triathlete Mag.com just posted a detailed interview with Rutger. The science behind his case is credible and valid. I would recommend everyone read the story.

he was proven innocent.

you should read the triathlete mag article.

this wasn't a reasonable doubt thing. there was direct scientific proof of his special condition that caused the positive test.

he already holds a certificate for a high hematocrit. his father and grandfather have the same condition. there's no motive for Betke to dope with EPO in the first place.

"this wasn't a reasonable doubt thing. there was direct scientific proof of his special condition that caused the positive test."

i have no idea whether rutger doped or not. i'll leave it to other, smarter, people to figure that out.

i think monty's point was this: rutger must always test "positive" for this specific test. if he ever tests "negative" in the way that the rest of us would, well, rutger's "negative" is actually, for him, a "positive." i believe monty was pointing out the irony in that. he can't pass an EPO test, as it's configured now. if he passes such a test, he's got some 'splainin' to do.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Actually, he has and does pass many EPO tests. The proteins that are coming up in his urine that cause him to test positive only manifest when he exerts himself anaeorbically. This is how they proved his innocence. A negative test pre-exercise and a positive test post-exercise.

As long as he tests positive before the race he should be clear.

I see his speculation, but the fact is a little different than what you two were thinking.

Cheers,

Mark

[reply]right now some people are looking at protein quaternary structure which could lead to a very reliable test for EPO without looking at protein markers...[/reply]

I sure hope it's based on more than a single study of less than 30 people like the current test apparently was.

Since the current test is based on percentages in certain bands just because you show negative before exercise and positive after doesn't mean you didn't dope. It just makes it less likely.

[reply]
Actually, he has and does pass many EPO tests. The proteins that are coming up in his urine that cause him to test positive only manifest when he exerts himself anaeorbically. This is how they proved his innocence. A negative test pre-exercise and a positive test post-exercise.

As long as he tests positive before the race he should be clear.

I see his speculation, but the fact is a little different than what you two were thinking.

Cheers,

Mark [/reply]
The tests are also valid post-race provided that he first urinates to get rid of the proteins. So two post-race samples (e.g. immediate sample and 2 hours later) can give a positive and a negative result with the current test.

SO now that some of the details are out on Beke's tests, and the blatant inadequatecy of those tests, I'm convinced he is clean. As I stated in my earlier post, this was just a thought expirement ,and I'll always give the athlete the benifit of the doubt when they are actually cleared. WADA and the other drug testing orginizations are becoming scary, willing to lie and cover up, just to protect their 100%(?) accurate tests. This is such a new science as things go, and of course there will be problems as things progress. I just wish they would own up to the mistakes and move on. I guess they feel that they have to be infallable, otherwise the alternative is that they would have to admit to ruining peoples lives who were innocent. I to have a hemoacritic of close to 50%, and a high level of natural EPO in my system. Don't know about the protein thing, but I can only imagine what the poor guy had to go through, knowing he was innocent. After his win this weekend, it appears he is back on the right track.....

I had a blood test last year when I wasn't training much and came back with HCT of 49%. I was like, wow, that's cool. When I spoke to my Doctor about the high result (he is also the President of my Tri Club) he said that it was likely so high because I had hardly been training, since the more you train the lower your HCT normally becomes.

Well, I thought it was funny:

Me "Hey, I'm like the natural equivalent of someone on EPO... I rule".

Doctor "No, you're just lazy, confirmed by the fact that you haven't been turning up to any training sessions".

:(