They are both owned by ABG who has destroyed both companies and what they once stood for. You never can tell if your bike is made in TN or Korea anymore...kinda like Trek...

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

It is my understanding that all of QRs ti bikes are made at the factory in Chattanooga. If you buy a QR, you are getting a QR, not a Litespeed, however, it is the same factory.

There are very few companies who can adequately build bikes out of titanium. when QR first came out with ti bikes, merlin built them, as merlin and QR were owned by the same company.

now all three are owned by ABG -- merlin, QR and litespeed. all have ti bikes, all are built in chattanooga.

my personal feeling is, QR took a bit of a dive when i left in '99 (of course i'd say that). but for 2003 i thought the line was good, esp the tiphoon and the caliente. for 2004 i think the line is even better, and the tequilo is one of the reasons i like the line a lot.

yes, there has been a bit of convergence between QR and litespeed, but i still think QR's bikes are better than litespeed's tri bikes because of the way they're positioned and spec'd. i much prefer the tiphoon to the saber, and it's also been a better value than the blade.

i wouldn't get too wrapped up in where this bike or that is built. the only reason we're talking about QR and litespeed is that ABG makes no secret that all the ti bikes are out of the same place. the story is not much different among other bike brands.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I wiall agree with that 110% Dan.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Record9ti:

Thank you so much for sharing your brilliant thoughts with us. You bring so much to this board. I am curious to know just exactly HOW ABG is DESTROYING the cycling world?

Thank you for your time.

:)

No problem Kristi..



Let me start by telling you that I have in my years purchased 6 Litespeed bicycles, 3 of which I still own. I am a USCF Certified Mechanic, attended Barnetts Bicycle Institute and United Bicycle Institute. I have many years working in shops, tech’ing pro races and racing USCF Cat2.

ABG has taken the custom market and pulled the custom out of it. Litespeed and Roo were both niche companies that had the best interests of EACH customer to mind…if you called Litespeed – want a polished Ultimate with a pink fork…no problem. If you wanted a 1cm taller head tube – no problem. If you wanted just a frame – no problem.

Now, ABG has some wild idea that they will server their MASS market better by only selling fully built bicycles…you as the consumer no longer have the option of component or wheels. You no longer can get a little this and a little that on your dream frame. ABG in cahoots with ShimaNO is "trying to prevent gray market grouppo’s from being sold by less than honest IDS’s at steep discounts"…sure, sure. They have left the niche for the mass market and are trying to cater to spend the least time possible with each customer and are more than happy to just tell you to call your "Local Stocking Dealer" as opposed to them helping you out themselves. Dealers also have been burned quite bad by Litespeed with new minimum on-hand stock and shitty terms for all but the largest dealers (if you live in a big city that is not a problem…try finding a Litespeed dealer in Peoria Illinois…the size of the market can not justify the stocking of a minimum of 3 bikes. THEN, the small dealer is not allowed to order just one bike…Litespeed will tell people (including ME) to just "Call Colorado Cyclist" and they will hook me up. Litespeed does not care if I support my local IBD…they just want to sell a bike.

ABG has taken that "sell over service" (as opposed to "sell with service") to all parts of the company and all lines in the mess.



Fact is, most of us out there that are willing to part with $6-7,000 on a bicycle want to cherry pick everything from aero bars to valve extenders…you just cant do that with ABG bikes – and they don’t care.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I agree that Litespeed has made some decisions that are bad for the customer, but I would not say that they have/are destroying the cycling world. I think they are ultimately destroying themselves and their position in the industry. They know more about building with titanium than anybody else, but they are quickly losing their following. Bicycle companies that think too highly of themselves will ultimately falter. Just look at what happened to Schwinn, GT, and Cannondale.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to me...

I just have a couple of thoughts: First of all, I also have several Litespeeds, and my through my LBS, I WAS able to cherry pick everything for my bike, down to the valve extenders, including the color of the frames and forks.

Also, while I currently live in a large metro area, I am a native of Central Illinois, and being that I still have ties there, I know for a fact that either Russell's Cycling and Fitness in Washington, IL (just outside of the aforementioned Peoria, IL) and Vitesse Cycles in Bloominton, IL (about 45 miles southeast of Peoria, IL) are both Litespeed dealers who can get anyone in Central IL, any Litespeed they want.

I'm not trying to be difficult - just my $.02 - I feel that a statement such as yours that ABG is DESTROYING the cycling world is a bit harsh and deserves to be questioned.

" ABG has some wild idea that they will server their MASS market better by only selling fully built bicycles."

i think most people agree that ABG overstepped when it did this. and i personally never bought the argument that it was to keep colo cyclist from giving grief to the LBSs by making EVERYONE buy complete bikes. i think it was to boost the top line and to therefore make the company a more attractive asset to new buyers, should JHK ever decide to sell it (which they eventually will).

but that's just my opinion.

that said, i think ABG also realized that minimum buy-ins on aluminum litespeed bikes, and complete bikes only, was a stretch, and it's pulled back on that quite a bit. now it's no different than trek, or c'dale, or any of a number of companies, who offer complete bikes only on most of its models, and bare frames available on others. i'm quite sure there's no company ABG's size or larger that has less stringent rules regarding frames v complete bikes.

two years ago, i'd have agreed with you down the line. now i notice them loosening up quite a bit, and also building better bikes. so i give them a lot of slack now versus previously.

before anybody brings this up, yes, you'll see a few photos of me in the new QR catalog, and yes, i addressed the dealers at their annual dealer conference. however, except for 2 months worth of ads run earlier in the year, i have no financial tie with QR, or ABG, and do not get any income from them. i did not charge them anything to use my photos in the catalog. now, i certainly THINK they should advertise, deeply, and monthly, on slowtwitch, because i think it would be good for their brands. however they don't as of now, and so what i write above isn't based on anything good that comes my way.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Thanks for the info Dan. I actually think a ti QR may be the best of both worlds...great QR design coupled with proven Litespeed quality. I just got a '02 Picanti and was just curious as to it's provenance. To my untrained eyes, the welds are beautiful. As for Mr. Record's comments, I would venture to guess ABG would love it if they had enough clout to "destroy the cycling world". They are a major player but certainly are no Trek or Giant.

Dan...thank you for your comments.

I am pretty pissed at them right now as I want a new bike and they will not let me get what I want (a polished frame and from a local dealer). I see no reason that they WONT take my money. Then they wont let me get the Grouppo on it I want even if I settle for less than what I really want (04 Ultimate, Polished, with OUT the carbon stays). I also would prefer no integrated HS but I thought that would be going to far with my request. What was funny is that their person on the phone was just plain rude to me - then told me to call Colorado Cyclist and hung up...this is NOT the Litespeed who in the past put my social security number as my serial number on my frames. This is NOT the Litespeed who gave me free "stuff" for being a "good customer" (meaning a person who spent money on their bikes).



I am not willing to drive 40 miles to another shop for a bike - period. At my local IBD I am "somebody". They know me, they know what I like and they support me quite well. They are there 24 horus a day if I need something (and I have needed things at 11pm the night before a race). I will support my LOCAL IBD...(who has sold me Litespeeds in the past). In another shop, in another city I am just "some guy"...when spending this much money on a bike I want to walk in and have the "Cheers" welcome that I always get at my local shop....we should all be so lucky to have a shop like this one.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Snob? Maybe...but I built a relationship over the years with my local IBD...I respect them and they me. Tehy support me 110%, I sponsor their teams, I voulenteer at their races...they are part of the local cycling community. That means something.

Take Gerard for instance...he is part of the community here at Slowtwitch...we all respect him and he has EARNED the dollars of many Slowtwitchers...possibly mine soon as I may get a Cervelo over the Litespeed.



And when I walk into the car dealership...they know me too ;-)

I SOOOO need that new GT3!

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

My .02... Record9ti may be a snob, but he is also a consumer looking to drop more cash than most people on a new bike. If the company doesn't want to sell him the bike he wants, then he has the right to voice his opinion and spend his money elsewhere. As Dan noted, people that spoke up about Litespeed's practices have caused them to loosen up over the last couple of years. Want to make sure the company gets the point?...nobody buy their bikes.

I also get special treatment at my LBS. I think it is respect that goes both ways between a retailer and a customer. The LBS bends over backwards for certain people, and those people drop lots of cash at their store and tell all their buddies how great the shop is...I'm sure there are a lot of shops that would kill to have 20 or 30 Record9ti's. Most sales people spend their lives building and depending upon a network of referral sources.

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Andy

'You'd be surprised how many people violate this simple principle every day of their lives and try to fit square pegs into round holes, ignoring the clear reality that Thinsg Are As They Are.'

This was on Litespeed website. Do you really expect them to build a custom bike for no extra charge? Based on your posted resume you should know that building a custom bike will increase the price. I bet if you call any large bike company and ask them to build you a custom bike there would be an added expense. That is why they are called custom bikes. It would be like calling Ferrari and asking them to increase the wheelbase of your new car. Just think about the added expense. How about calling Campy and ask them to change a component just for you and see what they say. When you ask any large manufacturer to change a product from the original design there always is going to be an added expense. If you want a custom Litespeed just order one and stop complaining.



Litespeed is committed to supplying our customers with the finest bicycles in the world. That means we go the extra mile to build custom frames whenever our customers have a need for something beyond our standard line. Because every titanium Litespeed is crafted entirely by hand, we can build a custom frame to meet the individual needs of any rider. We will always be ready and willing to help any rider create a personalized bicycle worthy of the Litespeed name. We fine tune geometry and tubing specifications for elite athletes who have specific demands. But we also build custom titanium road, mountain, time trial, or even track bikes for any customer who wants one. We'll even build a replica of a professional team racing bike if that's what you have in mind. The same craftsmen who build bikes for the pros are ready to build a Litespeed just for you. And when you buy a Litespeed, you're buying more than just a bike. You're also buying our promise to stand behind our work. We appreciate your choice to buy a Litespeed, and we don't take that decision lightly.

We believe every cyclist deserves the perfect ride.

To learn more about custom-built frames, or to get the Litespeed pros started on your own custom dream machine, just contact us

"You never can tell if your bike is made in TN or Korea anymore...kinda like Trek... "



I thought all Treks are made in Wisconsin. Is this not the case?

Cholla - not all of them.





And I too saw that statement on Litespeeds website. I did not get that answer on the phone with them at all. Like I said, the person I spoke to was quite rude...and I did expect to pay more for this frame. Price is not a factor in most of my cycling purchases - quality is.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I would hardly say ABG is destroying the cycling world. Yes, you are a good customer and it clearly shows. If you are not able to purchase from your LBS, I'm sure they will understand if you go somewhere else. It's your money and you should be able to get what you want.

We can all appreciate your wanting to support your LBS. I feel the exact same way. However, sometimes not everything goes as planned.

As for buying a Cervelo...I'm sure getting a custom bike made is just as difficult since their bikes frames are made in Taiwan.

Either bicycle company probably can get you a custom bike, but it's not as easy as when you are dealing with a smaller company.

I personally own two Litespeeds and like the fact that ABG is constantly pushing the envelope with new designs etc. They know Ti better than anyone else in the industry and are constantly refining their products.

You are absolutely right about one thing....CAMPY ROCKS!!!!!

Record, I suggest that you contact the other titanium bicycle maker that Dan regularly mentions with litespeed in terms of quality.

Seven.

Craig

"As for buying a Cervelo...I'm sure getting a custom bike made is just as difficult since their bikes frames are made in Taiwan."

if you were to want a custom cervelo it would probably be based on one of their frames made in north america.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Or Moots. Or Independent Fabrications.