"Most age groupers I know range from highly intelligent and motivated college students, to owners of small businesses, to CPA's and attorneys to multiple billion dollar revenue companies."

if RD's made up the bulk of the board at the multibillion dollar companies you speak of, would you put your 401k money there? even if RDs hd their own 401k money there, and so "earned the right" to be on its board? i wouldn't, and that's because RDs, as a group, have no experience in high finance.

but the BEST RDs know what the federation needs to do.

what RD's can and ought to do is vote for the best, most analytical, and experienced, people to be on the boards of the companies in which they invest their money.

age-grouper and pro triathletes ought to vote for the best, most analytical, and experienced, people to be on the board of USAT, whether those people are RDs or something else. obviously you can tell by lew kidder's written statements on this forum he knows what's going on. he's an attorney by trade (and a very occasional RD by hobby). other smart folks running for the board are john duke, who's NOT an RD, but DOES make his money in the sport, and has for a long time, and knows what's going on.

the federation is a $5 million company, and a very SPECIFIC kind of company. nothing else like it. it's both a non-profit corporation and a mini government. if you only want 2 or 3 or 4 RDs on the 11-person board, fine. i'd hope the others you want on the board have some very specific experience in knowing how USAT runs and ought to run, because when your garden variety civilian shows up for his first board meeting, well, i've just seen what happens. as i said before, there's the way it oughta be and the way it is. if you want to live life as it oughta be, be my guest. i'd rather live it as it is. we each get a vote to do with as we please.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Actually, all of this reminds me of the debate over Richard Nixon's nomination of G. Harold Carswell to fill a vacancy on the U.S. Supreme Court. A coalition of groups opposed the nomination, claiming Carswell was, well, "mediocre". In fact, he was dumb as a stone, though apparently a fine husband and a great duck hunter.

At any rate, during the Senate debate, the late Sen. Roman Hruska of Nebraska rose in passionate defense of the candidate. The thrust of his argument? "There are LOTS of mediocre people in the United States, and they deserve representation on the court too!!" Great. We have the black seat, we have the woman's seat, we have the jewish seat, and now we need to have the mediocre seat as well. [Fortunately, the present court was able to double up on these with Justice Thomas.] Any room left for the "superior judicial mind" seat?

---

Lew

As a middle of the packer I feel the current board is not representing me or the other MOP. If the board or USAT communicated better with us and took our concerns more seriously I would not have a problem with it being made up of RD's, Elites, anyone. But when so many member/athletes have a concern, such as race transfers, and nothing is done about it it feels like I am being dismissed. Since most of the Directors are former or current RD's I can only assume it is in their best interest to leave this issue alone.

I don't mean to dwell on race transfers but just as an example.

If not allowing race transfers is for the best of all the triathletes then tell me why. I don't want to hear why from other members thru this forum, I want to know why the Directors have decided not to take this issue on. I am only looking for the truth. If allowing race transfers will increase the entry fee to races, since the RD will not get to pocket the over-sell money, then let that be known so the members can decide if they really want race transfers at an increase to the entry fee. As I see it now the RD's sell a race months in advance and the further out the more he/she can over-sell. If he oversells by 20% then he is telling 20%, "I don't know who you are but I am going to keep your money. I'm not even going to send you a t-shirt."

As for having the average Joe on the board. I am not asking to have all RDs taken off just 1-2-3 spots made available for the average triathlete. At least this director would be able to fill me in on what is going on in the board. At least I will be informed.

Willy in Pacifica

---

.
Willy in Pacifica

Willy: You've identified an issue upon which your views (and those of many others) differ from the current policy of USAT, but the "solution" you suggest doesn't make sense. If a couple of average Joes (or Jills) will solve the dilemma, why hasn't the present board addressed the problem? The president of the board (Val Gattis) meets your description. So does Dian Travis of Florida. Tim Becker and Karen Buxton are also age group athletes - and, to my knowledge, are not race directors either.

Issues of this nature will not be solved by carving the board up into fixed constituencies. Save the appearance of Plato's benevolent despot, real engagement by the electorate is the only answer. Lobby, nominate, campaign, vote.

And if those methods don't work, look to the direct democracy provisions in USAT's bylaws. If 100 annual members sign a petition to amend the bylaws, the proposed amendment must be promptly submitted to a vote of USAT's entire annual membership. If the proposition gets a majority of the votes cast, the bylaws are so amended.

---

Lew

Lew,

Thanks for the info.

"You've identified an issue upon which your views (and those of many others) differ from the current policy of USAT"

Are you talking about Race Transfers above? How do I find out what the current policy is? What I am looking for is the reason for the current USAT policy. I can live with any policy if I know the reason for the policy. Maybe I have not asked the right people but I have seen this issue come up on this forum before and noone from the board ever addresed it.

Thanks for your help,

Willy in Pacifica

---

.
Willy in Pacifica

"How do I find out what the current policy is?"

the current policy is to suggest, not mandate, that RDs offer a reasonable refund policy. i'd like to turn the question around if i may. what race was it that you entered but couldn't compete in? did you query the RD about it, to see whether you could apply the entry toward a future race? same Q for SFtriguy.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

It isn't so much what race I entered, rather, I am worried about having to enter a race up to a year ahead of time with the posibility of losing my entire entry fee. I would say I have not entered many races due to this. I have a family and 50 hour a week job. I have no idea what I will be doing in a year from today. My wife and I just had Girl #3 last month. If either of us would have signed up for a race to be held any time near the due date we would have been out of luck. And many races would have required us to sign up for them even before conception. Of the baby, not the race.

I don't know if I will be employed in a year or if I will be injured. If a race director has a no refund policy I would not have so much of a issue if he did not open registration till say 3 months prior to the event. I would have a better feel for my ability to make and compete in the race. Today most RDs do not have a problem filling the race so why 1 year in advance? I believe, but just guessing, that the further out a RD can fill his race the more he can over-sell it, therefore more money in their pocket for which they are required to do nothing but deposit it in the bank. I am not saying this is the reason but by opening up registration 1 year in advance, and not allowing race transfers or refunds, more of the original entries will have issues that will not let them compete in the race. Unemployment, (can't pay to travel), new employment, injury, relocation, pregnency, even death could happen in the time between signing up for a race and the race date.

All I am asking is for the USAT board to help the average athlete with our issues. Look into them and tell us why it is either a good idea or why it won't work. Maybe I have to eat my entry fee for the better of the triathlon world and that is OK. But it is not OK for me to eat my entry fee for the benefit of a RD's pocket where I don't get any say in it.

The RD is getting benefits from USAT that is saving him lots of money. Why can't I get the USAT to help me save a little bit of money. When you add all the members that will save a little money it becomes a lot of money.

I don't have an issue with non USAT sanctioned races where the RD does not have the benefit of USAT's insurance, mailing list, race officials, etc since they are not using any port of my $30 and are not requiring $9 on race day. The few non sanctioned races that I have looked into usually do offer some sort of race transfer, refund or deferrment.

Agian, I am not saying anything should change, all I am looking for is for my representitve to listen to my concerns and communicate with me. If I get no communication then I have to assume for myself what is going on which may not be the correct.

Thanks again for your help and communication,

Willy in Pacifca

---

.
Willy in Pacifica

This is the refund and transfer policy that Triathlantic uses. We have seen some other races beginning to copy it pretty much verbatim. The reason 30 days is the outside limit is to discourage people from looking at a 2 week weather report, seeing rain and coming up with a mysterious illness in order to get out of the race. We do not allow race switching because of past experiences where people will switch events 4, 5, or 6 times a year. With 10, 000 entries + a year it becomes a data base nightmare keeping track.



REFUNDS
A 75% refund will be issued up to 30 days before the date of the event. A request for a refund must be done through the mail only. No email requests will be accepted. The request must be received 30 days before the day of the race. The refund will be issued in the form of a check one week after the date of the race. After the 30 day grace period there will be absolutely no refunds.

TRANSFERS
Athletes may transfer their entry to another athlete up to 30 days before the day of the event without penalty. The request for the transfer MUST be accompanied by the completed application of the athlete that the entry will be transferred to. The request will only be accepted through the mail. No email transfers will be accepted.

Athletes may transfer their entry to another athlete from 30 days before the event to 5 days before the event for an extra $10 fee. A request for the transfer MUST be accompanied by the completed application of the athlete that the entry will be transferred to. The request will only be accepted through the mail. No email transfers will be accepted.

From 5 days before the race until race day - No transfers will be accepted.

RACE SWITCHING
Athletes may not switch an entry from one race to another during the course of the year.

BJaeger,

That is a very generous refund/transfer policy. I think most race entrants would be very happy with a policy half that good. Anything reasonable beats nothing at all.

Does Triathlantic usually sell out its races?

How far out does its race registration open?

I guess their races are all on the east coast?

Willy in Pacifica, not Atlantica

---

.
Willy in Pacifica

"age-grouper and pro triathletes ought to vote for the best, most analytical, and experienced, people to be on the board of USAT, whether those people are RDs or something else."

Hey - we are in agreement! But I think this differs from your first statement that the whole USAT board should be made exclusively of RD's (and three elite triathletes due to USOC mandate) which was what started my comments in the first place.

"if RD's made up the bulk of the board at the multibillion dollar companies you speak of, would you put your 401k money there? even if RDs hd their own 401k money there, and so "earned the right" to be on its board? i wouldn't, and that's because RDs, as a group, have no experience in high finance. "

Well, I am sure there are RD's out there more than qualified to be on such a board....hell, I'm sure there are board members out there who also serve as a RD or assist them. Look at Graham Fraser - hell of a RD, and he has a lot of experience running a financial enterprise. For certain boards, I bet he would excel. The difference in our thoughts (at least initially, you appear to be stepping back a little) is that it is the individual that should be elected, not a job title. Look at the person, what he/she has done, what he/she can bring to the organization and how he/she can help triathletes and RD's. You even now seem to recognize that one need not be a RD to bring something to the board (as in your support for J. Duke). That reflects my original statements (and also my support for Jim Girand, an experienced duathlete also with years of expeirence in the sport who brings to the USAT the perspective of a duathlete with experience in various age groups and who has competed in world's. Check out: http://www.girand.com/Vote.html and see what Jim has already done for all triathletes and RD's and why Dave Scott supports Jim).

"but the BEST RDs know what the federation needs to do. "

Dan, I am sure SOME of the best RD's know what the federation needs to do. I am equally sure SOME of the best RD's think they know what the federation needs to do. Likewise, I am equally sure SOME age groupers know what the federation needs to do....and SOME age groupers also think they know what the federation needs to do. The same holds true for bike shop owners; sports magazine publishers; triathlon apperal designers, etc. etc.

Alan

"It isn't so much what race I entered, rather, I am worried about having to enter a race up to a year ahead of time with the posibility of losing my entire entry fee."

see, this is why i ask the question. there is a sort of a secret that i'm pretty sure certain race directors wouldn't want me to let out, but the fact is, they almost ALL have an UNOFFICIAL refund policy that is generally pretty generous.

most of the time, people are worried about what MIGHT happen, as is your case. but if you moved out of the area, became injured, etc., and if you make a case for a refund or something for reasons like that i don't think you'd have a problem. "I don't want to do the race because i never got around to training," well, that's another thing.

but most of the RDs i know would allow you to get a refund, or a partial refund, or to put your entry toward a future race. but they just don't want to publish their policy.

me, i'd make a policy, like brad jaeger does. i think it's just good business. however, the fact remains that most of the people who vigorously lobby for a set USAT policy don't have an anecdote they can point to which justifies such a rule.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Slowman,

Not sure what part of the country you are in but in the SF Bay Area in the bigger, more popular races the RDs rarely offer refunds or deferrals. Some of the smaller organizations like Envirosport will offer a refund or deferral and that is why I like doing those races. Plus it reminds me of back in the days of the late 70's and 80's when you could just show up on race day, register and race your butt off.

Boy I miss those days

Willy in Dreamland

---

.
Willy in Pacifica

"Not sure what part of the country you are in but in the SF Bay Area in the bigger, more popular races the RDs rarely offer refunds or deferrals."

you're speaking of terry or andy. anybody with a good excuse ever asked either of these guys for a refund or to set the entry toward a future race, and got refused?

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan:

I've been lucky and I only had one time I couldn't do a race that I enetered and since it was Ironman Japan, the USAT policies really don't apply. But, my interest isn't so much a reflection of my losses or inability to transfer, its more of a general concern for triathletes in our community. As Willy mentioned, we are fortunate enough to live in an area with such fantastic triathlons - so fantastic that they literally sell out in less than 2 hours nearly a year in advance. Someone wants to race, then they have to sign up in advanace. Someone thinking of doing the race? Same. Someone not even sure but wants to perserve the option - sign up. That leaves a lot of people who definitely want to do the race out in the cold. It also leaves a lot of triathletes who get injured, get pregnant, get laid-off, get sick, get unmotivated, simply change their minds, etc. who then get little or nothing back when they are withdraw AND when they do withdraw, no one can take their spot a stransfers aren't allowed. I admit that in other parts of the country this may be less of an issue which is also why I believe the key to a reasonable refund/transfer policy utilizes "sold out" vs. "not sold out" as a major trigger for what (if any) refund, credit, etc. applies. The other trigger is proximity to the race date (the closer to the date, the les sof a refund/credit).

Yes, I have asked race directors why. Their most common reason is that it would be too mcuh work. I'm sorry - I don't buy it. Not when there have been third parties who have set up companies to handle race transfers/waiting lists; when active.com could do it all...and still give the RD some administrative fee AND assurance that the new racer has met all license and waiver requirements.

Look at the Triathlantic transfer policy published above - - - FANTASTIC!!!!! That is a freakin model to which RD's should look. Beyond that, it is proof that it can be done.

And yes Dan - I know of quite a few people who have requested and not been given a refund. It is not limited to TriCal or J&A - IMNA, Kona 1/2 IM, etc. all have similarily stringent policies. They have "unofficial policies"? Then make them official. If teh RDs won't then the USAT should step in to require them.

Funny about the 100 member amendment requirement. HUNDREDS of USAT members signed a petition seeking the USAT to require RD's to provide reasonable refund/transfer policies. I didn't see a vote or an amendment. Just a "policy suggestion". That was actually a relief - it was the first response/action to what is a very very common complaint of triathletes (I see it here, I see it in various club e-mail exchanges, I see it in other internet forums). Yet, the RDs aren't changing it on their own so the USAT board should step up and represent the interests of ALL USAT members, not just the RDs who don't want it changed.

Alan

[snip]

race transfers/refunds is mostly a local issue, and a market issue. yes, it's of interest elsewhere, but it's most acutely SF-area based.

and quite frankly, you guys stand in line to sign up for wildflower on the first of december, and less than 150 of you signed up and raced world's toughest half in auburn. i came all the way from L.A. to do that race, and while i love WF, if you made me choose between those two races it'd be a tough choice. i might choose toughest.

but you guys up there still clamor to do WF and alcatraz, you ignore the other good, smaller races, and you want the federation to force terry davis to adopt a policy because you can't imagine yourselves not doing his races.

hope to see you at toughest april 17th.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Actually, I have never done Wildflower (nor have I tried to apply) - same with Treasure Island, and Dirty Adventures. I, and members of our club, do support newer and "alternative" races. I have been a big supporter of Dave Horning and his Envirosports events for years. Likewise, the SF Tri Club club joined forces with Brad to help market The World's Toughest. We also promote and actively swarm to races from J&A, On Your Mark, TBF, By The Beach, TriOne, and countless other race directors/management.

I think you may want to examine your statement that we ignore (I'm assuming by "we" you mean the SF Bay area) ignore other races. Almost all the races here, whether Alcatraz or Tri For Fun sell out. Our members actively support, compete in, help market and volunteer at EVERY local race. As for World's Toughest, that may not have sold out. But, as awesome a race as it is (1) Sacramento is still a bit of a drive for us too and (2) not every athelte who can do Pac Grove or SJ Int'l can do a World's Toughest. But give it time - I believe that it too will be selling out very soon.

And, while you state that transfers/refunds is mostly a SF-based issue, you might be surprised to learn that the vast majority of triathletes who signed the petition to have the USAT require RD's to impliment transfer/refund policies came not only from beyond SF - they came from beyond California.

Alan

Only a few more days until the USAT elections are over. Your vote must be postmarked by Nov. 1st. As a former USAT board member I would like to offer my picks for this years board. (I live in the east region and could only vote for each and at-large)

At Large - Karen Buxton - Great person, coach and athlete. She has been on the board and has done a great job.

East - Rob Vigo - Race Director, has been on the board, knows the sport, age-group athlete. I also voted for him even though I am running.

Central - You pick - can not go wrong with any of these guys - just depends on your views of triathlon. Jack is a RD - very strong personality, former board member. Lew is an icon of the sport, long time triathlete, great ideas for the future of the sport. Bill - Great guy, great RD, great choice.

West - John Duke, hands down - knows the sport, former board member. The board needs him back!

Remember - Vote today! Go to www.usatriathlon.org to print out a ballot. Tom Ziebart