What would you suggest then - a 10 mile swim for the IM so bump it up to something like the marathon time ?

Well you could do it, but how many people would be interested in that ? How many safety people would you need to cover the entire pack ? How many locations would be ruled out as they're too small ?

The swim is the most alien of disciplines to any triathlete - all that water ? It's just not normal. ;-)

You couldn't stretch people in the water as much as you can with the bike and the run - you'd kill them. Or at least some of them.

Historical precedence is what it is. Get over it !

I agree with this Aztec. I'm sure you are physically there of close to it so it is the mental game you need to overcome. Go to the pool and swim 2K just to show yourself you can. You know from our prior posting that I suck at the swim but my weekly workouts include 2 days of torture sets with the masters group and one day of long slow distance by myself. The LSD is the mental part to show myself I can do it. I was plus 5 minutes from pool to open water time in 1.5K distance. Monk gave good advice about the start-go out slow and easy to counter the sensory overload from the start.

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Where's the race? In a few weeks- Honu maybe? Have you tried swimming laps for a specific amount of time (ie swim at a moderate pace for 1 hr)? That way you don't have to count, but if you know you pace (ie 1:40/100) you will have a rough idea of the distance covered................kj

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Awww, Katy's not all THAT evil. Only slightly evil. In a good way. - JasoninHalifax

Hey Aztec,

Like Dory says in Finding Nemo - "just keep swimming, just keep swimming..."

Was it Monk who said "Look Ma, I'm givng swim tips, and I can't find my ass with both hands!!!" ? Anyway, my $0.02, from the forum's 2nd worse swimmer. ;-)

Seriously, I have flailed and sunk my way thru 5 swims so far (3 were 1.5k) and like you, have a 2k swim coming in my very near future. Float, backstroke, sidestroke, breaststroke, do whatever you hafta if you start getting wigged out. It ain't pretty, it ain't fast, but it gets ya from Point A to Point B, eventually. Obviously you (and I) want to do as much Free as possible, but there are no style points awarded for trying to do it 100% Free, and then getting a kayak ride.

For me, it's mostly about the "not being able to breathe thing". So, if/when I get that feeling, I stop doing freestyle, and just do anything else, except freak out. Yes, it is pitiful and slow to revert to other strokes, but do whatever you hafta do to keep making some forward progress. Then regroup, and swim Free some more.

Sorry ya can't wear a wettie for yer race, but it could be worse: the half I'm doing my cancel the swim if the water is sub 50 degs, and we will "only" do .6m if it is 50-55 degs, and the full 1.2m if it's above 55. With my luck, it will be 57 degrees that day. I just ordered my Barracuda Hothead cap - hooray.

Best of luck!

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float , hammer , and jog

Out of balance my friend, and out of proportion.........

Triathletes are great athletes. And the discipline required to do 2 different sports is more than just the some of the parts. Triathletes have to be great runners and bikers to do well: they don't have to be great swimmers.... adjust it so that they do....

It's easy. Shorten the run a bit. Shorten the bike a bit, lengthen the swim a bit.

That's all I'm saying, - I AM over it, and I am chill. But let's not all pretend that the swim isn't a joke, - because it is.

<< But let's not all pretend that the swim isn't a joke, - because it is. >>

And Your Honor, as Exhibit A, I present.... me! ;-)



OK Toesie, but the problem is, the whole thing started based off of existing stand-alone events, which were then combined together to create the first IM.

IF swimming were trully 1/3 of the time of a Tri, then you'd have fields 1/3 (or likely even a lot less) the current size. Not a lotta RD's looking to try THAT idea, ya think?

And since pretty much all you post about is this particular topic, I'd say you are not quite over it yet....

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float , hammer , and jog

Don't listen to the crybabies. You'll do fine. Here are some ideas:

(1) do an easy breast stroke for 25 meters out of every 100 to 150 meters. Breast stroke changes the muscle groups and helps you catch up on your breathing.

(2) stay well to the side of the pack or (a) you'll kick people in the face when you pull up to start breast-stroking or (b) you'll get dunked by a strong swimmer behind you.

(3) stay close to the kyackers

Good luck.

Is what I have experiential and technical knowledge about, - don't want to talk out of my bunghole about things that I don't know about......

No need to dig deeper, or go on about this much more. The fact remains that Triathlons were created by folks who thought of swimming as a token afterthought. There's nothing wrong with that, - but don't pretend that a triathlon is a balanced 3 sport event.

I don't think "balanced" can ever me attained as it woudl be different for every athlete.

If you're a super crappy swimmer and a great runner biker, quite possibly it is balanced.

On top of that swimming offers challenges and dangers that simply don't exist in the other two disciplines, mostly mental but some physical.

IOW swimming is considerably different from running and biking then biking is from running.

That being said I'd agree that after some effort put into swimming that the swimming portion is "under represented". However since it is shorter leads many to believe that they can "blow it off" and thus opens an opportunity for those that actually think becoming a "good" swimmer is a good idea.

~Matt

Please, please tell us, how *any* of your posts in this thread have attempted to assist Aztec, based on what you << have experiential and technical knowledge about >> ??

I have personal, first-hand experience at being a piss-poor swimmer, and yet still completing, and competing in, triathlons. That (admittedly limited, but related to the topic at hand) experience is what I wanted to share with Aztec.

<< Triathlons were created by folks who thought of swimming as a token afterthought. There's nothing wrong with that, - but don't pretend that a triathlon is a balanced 3 sport event >>

zzzZZZZzzzz...... Who cares? (besides you, obviously)

Triathlon. It is what it is.

Why don't you put yer $ where yer mouth is, and RD an event that is equally split between all 3 disciplines, and see how many competitors you get.



I await your inevitable reply.



Aztec - you'll be fine. Start behind everybody, start off slow (no rush, you know you'll be coming out after the majority of folks anyway, so why get into the spin-cycle to begin with??), and remember - it's all about the bike and the run. ;-)

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float , hammer , and jog

not based on an individual...

Look, - the run is balanced with the the bike. An elite runner will do the run distance in a certain amount of time, let's say two and 1/2 hours. In MOST triathlons the bike would be balanced with that, - wherein an elite biker will do the bike in two and 1/2 hours. Contrast that with the swim, - wherein an elite swimmer will do the swim in 30 minutes.....

Get my point?

You're right that there are "dangers" in the swim, - but again, - that doesn't have anything to do with balance in this case.

I offered my advice to Aztec, and also told him that I admired his courage, and also apologized for hijacking the thread.... did you read those posts? Shall I come look back through and quote them?

Pompous Prick!

Of course I know that Triathlons are what they are, - and I have no issue with that. I am honestly offering up my opinion on how would should TRAIN for triathlons, and I am offering up my opinion about how triathlons are organized/balanced.

I am also saying that Triathlons would be MORE FAIR to the 3 disciplines if they were more balanced.

It would be unusual for one person to have the ability to finance a more balanced event, and you're right if you're implying that the participation would be limited, - as you also imply, - the fact that triathlons are unbalanced bodes well for athletes who transition from cycling and running.

Yeah, - it's boring for you? Well, - you don't have to type right now.

I apologize again to Aztec for hijacking the thread. Aztec, - good luck to you man, and I echo the advice of others, - plus my own, - get out there in a lake or the ocean with some waves and an escort, - practice swimming the same distance, and practice looking up and navigating. Practicing running into and out of the water.....

<< Pompous Prick! >>

You say the sweetest things. You had me at hello...

Hello Pot, this is Kettle - you're black. ;-)



Other than the 'get out in open water and give it a go', and the (very good)advice you just added (as almost an afterthought), you have used his thread as a stage for your own stupid agenda, yet again.

Actually, there have been numerous discussions here about how, if you want to be an Elite/Pro triathlete, that it is best to start with a great swimmer, who then can learn how to bike and run. (at least Lew Kidder and Fleck think so) Dudes like Gordo who started swimming late in life and then got good at it are the exception that proves the rule.

Sounds like it's more unfair and unbalanced for the non-swimmers, if ya ask me. NOT that I (or Aztec) have any such aspirations, but we pretty much have no prayer of that sorta thing, whereas just about any decent swimmer might.

Now presenting, the First Annual Toenail Fair and Balanced Tri - co-sponsored by Fox News. 10m swim, 10m bike, 10m run. ;-)

The one race for all you Fishises who get dissed by unfair, standard Tri's.

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float , hammer , and jog

Maybe a snorkel would help...

;o)

"Get my point? "

Actually no. I've not seen a race where the bike and run have been balanced time wise. Seems the bike is always the longer leg.

There will always be "unbalance" of some sort. IF you go by time you could argue that all in all by time to time comparison running is more "damaging" thus more difficult. You obviously can't go by distance. Any attempt to "balance" the race will be "unbalanced" in one form or another.

I'm not disagreeing that in tri swimming is definately at the short end of the stick, but that's the way it is and is likely to stay that way. OTOH I wouldn't mind seeing races with longer swims, even though I seriously suck at swimming. Unfortunately I suspect that they would not be so well recieved.

~Matt

Yeah,

I apologize. That was uncalled for.........

My advice offered up to Aztec from my first post from his post should have been left alone with train as you race: and get out there in the open water and give it a try, - with navigation techniques and some buddies....

""advice you just added (as almost an afterthought),"

no, I said that in my first response to Aztec's post.

Of course, - you actually don't think that I meant that it "balance" means equidistant? But, - obviously, - equal time.

""Sounds like it's more unfair and unbalanced for the non-swimmers, if ya ask me. NOT that I (or Aztec) have any such aspirations, but we pretty much have no prayer of that sorta thing, whereas just about any decent swimmer might.""

Not at all; when the distance/time ratio is so imbalanced, great swimmers NEED to become great cyclists and runners to compete. As it is, great runners and great cyclists can remain poor swimmers and still compete.

Honestly, - I'm saying that I'd certainly prefer more of a balance, - but I understand that things aren't going to change. If they are not, - I would also prefer that the pretense of balance is dropped. But, - I'm just a tiny little fish in a great big guppy pond: knowing that my opinions are ultimately valueless under the weight of tradition and other factors.

Sorry again for hijacking the thread with my own agenda, - I'll endeavor to not do so in the future.

Actually I think, not that anyone cares, a "fairly balanced" tri based on "elite time" would become HEAVILY weighted in favor of the swimmers. In fact so much so I would suspect that every race would be won by the swimmers.

"Elite" swimmers are "forged" for a much longer period of time out of much better organized "coached" and structured groups than most any biking or running "elites". I don't know of any local high schools that have any cycling groups or competitons, yet almost every middle school has a coached and competitive swim team.

On top of that there are far more resources to take advantage of for being coached and being involved in groups of runners and cyclers later in life than swimming. In fact we have several local bike clubs and running clubs many with somewhat accomplished individuals involved. OTOH we have very few, if any, competant resources for the adult swimmer.

The end result, IMO, would be either you start out as as a swimmer or your screwed. IOW if you start out as a runner or biker, by teh time you get to swimming you have precious few resources available to learn from. Stack that on top of the near impossibility of being a "self coached" swimmer and if you don't get coached you're screwed.

~Matt

Don't think, just thwim!

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If you ever want to know what an "eggman" is, then simply click here....http://www.emu5.de

Hmmm...as someone who is more of a fish than a jackrabbit, I would welcome longer swim legs and shorter runs. But the events are what they are, and we all have to do our best with that.



Aztec - remember that you can draft in the swim, and in fact might get a lot of help from drafting if you get behind the right clump of people. Relax, enjoy the scenery, and let the four or five guys ahead of you (the ones who are locked arm-to-arm and kicking each other) do a lot of the work for you.

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Live long and surf!

It's all in your head. How do you know FOR SURE you can do the run without doing it first? Here's my two cents: If you can really do the 20x100s on 5 sec rest, try it again with 2 or three sec rest, or just pause for a moment take a couple breaths and start again. IMOHO, I'd bet if you forced yourself to swim 2000 yds straight, you could do it. It's all in your head.

I did a 26 mile run less than a week before my first marathon so I wouldn't have any doubts.

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king of the road says you move too slow
KING OF THE ROAD SAYS YOU MOVE TOO SLOW

Looking forward to the SBR Multisports half as well though after looking at the bike/run profile, I might actually prefer that the swim be canceled!

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Matt

Aztec, I remember reading before and sounds like you've been working on your swim... you can do it, just remember to relax and don't get anxious with all the people around you, stay calm. You will have plenty of time to catch up people on the bike and the run :) Enjoy the day and your first race! Doing a long TT on the pool might help you mentaly more than anything. Yes, it might be boring, but it might give you a little more confidence and help you relax on race day.

Enjoy your vacation and let us know how was it!

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“You can't coach desire.” --Dathan Ritzenhein
http://xtreme4.com/ -- an extreme ride for extreme change: go green

Technically, I'm not even sure I could do 20x100 on 5 secs rest (though I *think* I could). I was using that as an example. Like I said, I'm unsure of my actual limit, as I'm very wary of doing too much and injuring my shoulder to the point of not being able to train (it's OK if that happens from the race).

I know I can do a 13 mile run. :-)

Thanks to all for your thoughts.

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Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

If you don't like swimming or are scared about your abilities or don't have the mental toughness to swim a straight 1.2 miles in the pool, why not just do Duathlons?

Just to establish my 'credentials' as someone who can relate to your fears...I'm a poor swimmer. To back that statement up with some cold facts, this means... I get seasick, I can't bilateral breathe, I can't swim straight, I have a stiff back and neck which means I don't look up to navigate too well and without prescription lenses I can't see where I am going. My only IM swim time was 1:35 and my average time for a half IM swim is about 43 minutes and I am normally absolutely shattered and have an empty stomach at this point. I did a Half IM last week on a total swim training volume of 4 km across 4 training swims.

Specific advice, the most benficial training swim is the one that most closely resembles race day. get comfortable with open water swimming. practice sighting regulalry as part of your swimming so you don't go off course without a black line in front of you and you know you can sight without drinking water etc. work out if you will get nauseous and take steps to address this if necessary (e.g. 'kwells'). practice swimming like you will on race day (ie with a full stomach or not). if you don't/can't swim the distance in training, then maybe consider a long ride or run followed by a normal length swim, you'll perhaps get a feeling for your form/endurance when swimming fatigued. be confident that the support you have on the water almost guarantees your safety and ability to finish the swim. confirm if possible that in the unlikely event you have to hang off the side of a kayak for a minute that you won't be DQ'ed.

on the day, allow yourself time for a swim warmup. use some body glide/vaseline to avoid chafing under arms etc. be prepared to start at the back and have no company the whole way. make sure you are happy that you know what the swim course is. allow yourself time to recover from the swim in T1 (get the HR back down, relax etc). Also, don't think that you need to make up for a poor swim by smashing the bike as a half marathon is plenty long enough to really remind you you overcooked your legs.

mental toughness, perserverance, stubborness etc can get you through almost anything on the day. 'the best indicator to tell you (me) I can do the swim' is whether or not you believe you are the kind of guy who finishes what you start. if so, all you have to do is get to the start line and keep moving forwards, it simplifies a lot of stuff.