You're freakin' me out again. ;)

OK, I'm out. This time I mean it.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Don't get too excited Vitus. I'm not saying God is sinning or doing evil. I believe that he isn't. I guess in the end, we wouldn't "know" for sure, just like we can't "know" that God really exists. All we can do is take the evidence, interpret it, and then have faith in our convictions. I have faith that God doesn't commit evil acts, but that's different from saying that I know that for sure.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

If the below will send us off on a tangent, I take it back, don't mean to interrupt what was very interesting to read.

"I see that you see it that way. My very point is that you are restricting God to operating within human reasoning. By your definition, sin is something against the will of God. By human logic, as soon as God does X, X must not be against his will, therefore X must not be a sin. All of that makes sense if you are operating strictly within the bounds of human reasoning and logic. My point is that God is not bound by that logic. In essence, you are setting up a definition that makes sense to the human mind, and then holding God to that definition, instead of seeing that God is way above having to do things that make sense by human logic. "

If Christians don't agree with what you wrote above then they can't be against cloning humans. God created life, therefore man doing it can't be a sin, therefore cloning isn't a sin.

I have some muddled memory of maybe hearing a minister (might have been my step-father) saying that somewhere in the Bible that we can't fully know/comprehend God till we are with God. Might want to just leave it at that, though the exploration of these topics are helpful to non-Christians and Christians alike. As well as those of you in the debate because it helps crystallize what you believe.

"If Christians don't agree with what you wrote above then they can't be against cloning humans. God created life, therefore man doing it can't be a sin, therefore cloning isn't a sin"

That's not exactly right. Just because God is allowed, doesn't mean man is allowed. Christians generally believe that some things are reserved for God. Judegment, for example. Final judgement of your sins is reserved for God, not for man. To some Christians, creation of human life falls into this same category. It's akin to having a business in which the boss is allowed to do some things, but that doesn't mean it's ok for the employees to do those things. (poor analogy, but you get the idea)

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I was specifically referencing the line: "By human logic, as soon as God does X, X must not be against his will, therefore X must not be a sin."

Which to me read that if God created life then it was fine for humans to do so (assuming we can). Definitely though Christians will feel that certain things are reserved only for God. As an example, can we even really say that humans are able to judge another human the way God can? Don't see how a human could do this in the traditional view of God. Using your example, the employees aren't even capable of doing what the boss can, so the employees can't do the same regardless of your view of it being ok or not.

I think we saying almost the exact same thing, but slightly different. Any which way, thanks for the above, it was an interesting read.

Which to me read that if God created life then it was fine for humans to do so (assuming we can).

I think you're misinterpreting the commodore's statement. I don't think he meant it to mean that man has the right to do whatever God has the right to do.

can we even really say that humans are able to judge another human the way God can?

Course not.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

By human logic, as soon as God does X, X must not be against his will, therefore X must not be a sin for God to do it.

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_______________________________________________

Very important addition, thanks, well taken.

He doesn't actually believe in that quotation anyways, so it is probably best left as moot.



And Christianity definitely teaches that a human can't judge as God does, not sure if any other religions do. I was going to write "Though, based on your view of atheism as a religion, I guess that is a yes, atheists would believe it." But since atheists don't believe in God they don't believe a non-exist God can judge anything.



PS: Why do you call him the commodore? I've always wanted to know. The first time I read it I thought you meant it in a belittling manner, and I'm pretty sure it is not meant that way. Just shows me I need a good nickname, never had one.

Why do you call him the commodore?

Just a little good natured, friendly ribbing from an ex-squid to a ring knocker and current Navy officer. It certainly isn't meant to belittle him. Any Academy grad is mostly OK in my book.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I think you'll like this (via a retired Navy co-worker poking fun at my retired Air Force boss, which I passed on to my ex-Army Dad):

On some air bases the Air Force is on one side of the field and civilian aircraft use the other side of the field, with the control tower in the middle.
One day the tower received a call from an aircraft asking, "What time is it?"
The tower responded, "Who is calling?"
The aircraft replied, "What difference does it make?" The tower replied, It makes a lot of difference........ If it is an American Airlines flight, it is 3 o'clock. If it is an Air Force plane, it is 1500 hours. If it is a Navy aircraft, it is 6 bells. If it is an Army aircraft, the big hand is on the 12 and the little hand is on the 3. If it is a Marine Corps aircraft, it's Thursday afternoon and 120 minutes to "Happy Hour."
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During training exercises, the lieutenant who was driving down a muddy back road encountered another car stuck in the mud with a red-faced colonel at the wheel
"Your jeep stuck, sir?" asked the lieutenant as he pulled alongside.
"Nope," replied the colonel, coming over and handing him the keys, "yours is."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Having just moved into his new office, a pompous, new colonel was sitting at his desk when an airman knocked on the door.
Conscious of his new position, the colonel quickly picked up the phone, told the airman to enter, then said into the phone, Yes, General, I'll be seeing him this afternoon and I'll pass along your message. In the meantime, thank you for your good wishes, sir. " Feeling as though he had sufficiently impressed the young enlisted man; he asked, What do you want?"
"Nothing important, sir," the airman replied, "I'm just here to hook up your telephone."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Officer: "Soldier, do you have change for a dollar?"
Soldier: "Sure, buddy."
Officer: "That's no way to address an officer! Now let's try it again"
Soldier. Do you have change for a dollar?
Soldier: "Sir, No, SIR!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Q: How do you know if there is a fighter pilot at your party?
A: He'll tell you.

Q: What's the difference between a fighter pilot and a jet engine?
A: A jet engine stops whining when the plane shuts down.
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"Well," snarled the tough old Navy Chief to the bewildered Seaman, " I suppose after you get discharged from the Navy, you'll just be waiting for me to die so you can come and pee on my grave."
"Not me, Chief!" the Seaman replied. "Once I get out of the Navy, I'm never going to stand in line again!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The elderly American gentleman arrived in Paris by plane.

At French Customs, he fumbled for his passport.
"You have been to France before, monsieur?" the customs officer asked sarcastically.

The old gent admitted that he had been to France previously.
"Zen, you should know enough to 'have your passport ready for inspection"
The American said, "The last time I was in France, I didn't have to show a passport."
Impossible, You Americans always have to show your passports on arrival in France!
The American senior gave the Frenchman a long hard look. Then he quietly explained. "Well, when I came ashore at Omaha Beach on D-day in 44, I couldn't find any Frenchmen to show it to."