Or how about this picture of (arguably) the two world's all time bests, Bekele and Guerouj battling it out in the 5000m in Athens. History in the making. I am glad Guerouj took it because Bekele has many more years to shine. The pain that they must be feeling - and they keep their form together.



From http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/...Guerouj2_Athen04.jpg

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Adrian in Vancouver

Again, it's the look/feel of total relaxation and in this race, a 5000m, they are running even faster - 4:10 min/mile or faster. Extraordinary!

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

[reply]I just hate reality. I will continue to insist that fast runners land on their toes. Romanov said it, so it must be true. After all, he coached what's-his-name to multiple world titles. I forget the guy's name, but it was somebody really, really fast that ran on his toes.

Why, Romanov himself set all those records in distance running. What were they again? Well, I forget...but I'm sure it was in some big-time track meets.[/reply]

Luckily Dr Noakes' research should be published in the next year or so, then reality-based coaches and athletes will be able to relegate Romanov & Pose to a well-deserved obscurity. The gullible however will continue to have faith, but there's no doing anything about that.

I remember watching Bruce Fordyce (multiple Comrades winner and 50-mile world record holder) run, the same appearance of relaxed effortless speed. He used to write his goal splits down the inside of one forearm, and the word RELAX on the other..

Fleck,

Do you think runners that are fast enough (perhaps sub 40 min 10k) should work at landing on their forefoot or do you think they should do what comes naturally?

I am curious whether landing on the forefoot is a natural adaptation to running fast.

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Adrian in Vancouver

Denial???? who is in denial??? how exactly do you heel strike wearing these? they don't even have a heel.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Nobody is suggesting that to "heel strike" means to slam down on your heels like a fat jogger. The fact remains that, except for pure acceleration during a sprint, runners' heels hit the ground first. It is a light landing, and the weight rolls quickly onto the mid and forefoot.

I suggest that you not take the construction of a running shoe to be the determinant of a biomechanical fact. Get some high frame rate video, slow it down and watch the runners. Their heels hit first, and that's that. The shoes that you show don't have a built-up heel because runners don't need one. But they still make contact with the heel first.

"they don't even have a heel." - That's almost funny! Those shoes sure look like they have a heel to me. What do we call that part that wraps around the back of the foot, if not a "heel?"

I was always taught and thought that its something you don't really think about - it happens naturally. I think that there is a natural shift forward on the foot the faster( relatively speaking) you are running. If you look at the Africans they just run. There is likly very little thought put into HOW they are running. Dan was talking about the arms crossing the centre line - clearly Bekele's arms do this based on the photos here, but he IS the best distance runner in the world right now, so it does not seem to be negativly impacting him in any way compared to his competition.

Most runners, triathletes in particular just plod. I say this with respect, as they likley know no better. Most/all, could benefit from ANY form of faster running that gets them using the different muscles in the legs/feet differently and opening up the stride. However, this mantra of all-LSD-all-the-time has been pounded into many triathletes and rec runners. "Faster" running of any kind is looked upon as being some form of evil thing. It's a strange situation, really.

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Well I have a video tape of me running a few weeks ago that says otherwise. It LOOKS like the heel comes down first, but if you look very closely and slow down the tape it becomes obvious that my foot is striking around the ball. Most runners lead with their heel but as the foot pronates the forefoot comes around and strikes before the heel...at least that is the natural motion when not interfered with a la bulky motion control shoes.

Spikes are constructed so that you land on the toes, all spikes, distance and sprint. ...thats where they put the spikes after all. There's a sharp angle between the forefoot and the heel where the "wedge" would be in bulky training shoes....in spikes there's nothing there but fresh air.

If you put on spikes and strike with your heel you'll cripple yourself in about 5 minutes.

"they don't even have a heel." - That's almost funny! Those shoes sure look like they have a heel to me. What do we call that part that wraps around the back of the foot, if not a "heel?"

Do you hit the ground with the part of the shoe that wraps around the back of the foot????? wow, thats gotta hurt.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Fleck,

On another topic...how much training were you doing per week when you set your PB IM of 9'04'? Also, approximately how much time for running, biking, swimming per week?

Thanks

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Adrian in Vancouver

When I was running middle and long distances on the track in high-school and university I wore spikes for faster workouts and for races. What I noticed was that the heel of the spikes would start to get worn/scuffed, where it traditionally does - back outside corner. So obviously for me, there is some significant contact with this part of the foot and the ground. Is it the first point of contact? I think that is based on the relative speed that you are going. If I was cruising along at 3000/5000m race pace ie 70 - 75 sec/lap at the time( those were the days!!) I suspect that my heel was maybe making first contact, but when the pace would increase dramatically, a surge or a kick to the finish, I was more up on the balls/toes.

I think that it's noteable that true sprint spikes, have no heel at all, and most middle/long distance spike have some form of heel padding/elevation of .5 to 1.0 cm.

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

That was such a long time ago now. The mind is getting a bit foggy.

The key for me were the benchmark long/hard workouts that I did. If I finished and recovered from these well then I knew I was ready. This was before the days of HRM and Powermeters. It was all about pace and exhertion.

If there is one standalone workout it was a big brick that I would do that really told me I was ready to go:

4hours of hard riding, usually solo at or slightly faster than IM goal race pace for long stretchs( 5:00) with some big climbs done at a steady pace. Then quickly transition to a 2 hour run. I would hold 7:00 min miles for the first hour and then try and drop it as close as I could to 6:00 min/miles for the second hour. I would check the pace by stopping by a local running track in the first few miles to make sure I was running exactly 7:00's and then do the same in the second hour to make sure I was honestly running in the 6:30 or faster zone. My idea behind this run was that the first hour, told me how fit I was coming off the bike AND how to hold back and control the pace in the early going( a KEY point). The second hour simulated somewhat the fatigue and pain you experience late in the run in an IM, with out actually doinging IM or running for 3:00.

There are top coaches and athletes who would not advocate this type of workout as it is very risky, and I would agree. It's not for everyone. You need to be experienced, you need to know what you are doing and your need to be durable.

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Fleck,

look at El Gerrouj in the photo above. His whole foot is in contact with the ground...I'll bet dollars to donuts his foot made initial contact around midfood and as it pronated the toes and heel came down...so unless you are flat out sprinting there will be heel contact with the ground....it just doesn't hit first.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Matt,

Agreed!

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

"Dan was talking about the arms crossing the centre line - clearly Bekele's arms do this based on the photos here"

perhaps we're looking at two different things. neither meb, geb, or bekele's hands cross the centerline. they come to it, but don't cross it. of course, in XC, when you're occasionally forced to doing something odd to regain balance, that's different. but if you look at the track shot, the hands go to, but not past, centerline. the dynamics are a slight bit altered throughout the turn, but not much.

when the hands cross the centerline the shoulders follow, and the overstriding ensues. these guys don't do that.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"his foot made initial contact around midfood"

of course you're right. almost every good runner is a midfoot striker, and the heel strikes afterward.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

those have a much more sizeable heal on them than a sprinting shoe.

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The Dude abides.

Dan, therein lies the crux of the debate. Shouldn't we all aspire to emulate good runners and not use crutches like built up "technologically advanced" shoes to alter our natural stride?

If El Gerrouj is a midfoot striker, I want to be a midfoot striker.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

i think i'm going to have to call BS on at least some of this thread. look again at that first picture on page 1, but this time look at the faces: each of those men is in real pain.

this might be my academic/professional background poking through, but i recoil a bit from all this worshipping of 'african-ness'. are we saying 'africans just run', whereas everyone else runs with crappy form because they lack the blood quantum that keeps them relaxed or endows them with a flawless footstrike?

i'm not calling anyone out, and i think the original point of the post was a well-deserved bit of admiration for some incredible athletes. and i'm as keen as anyone to watch tapes of the pros (i just downloaded a whack of thorpe/hacket videos) or to read about the 'training secrets' of the best. but this constant fingering of 'african' ancestry (what do morrocans and kenyans really have in common, geographically? it's like referring to turks and koreans as 'asians') as the golden thread is misplaced.

yes, the kalenjin dominate, and are structurally well-suited to running at certain distances. but they also work incredibly hard, live very healthy lifestyles, grow up in a culture which praises running excellence and live in a context in which running provides a very real way out of an otherwise hard/unstable life. the sherpa example is well-served here, too.

would we say that africans will never excel at triathlon because they haven't got those 'north american' genes? or that team canada sucked in the pool at the olympics this year because we just aren't 'naturals' like those aussies? bell curve, anyone?

anyway, this may ruffle some feathers - or not - but i'm accustomed to not take these things at face value; regardless i'm a fan of this thread and keen to see where it goes.

-mike

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

check that track picture:

does anyone else find it funny that hicham's wearing a 'livestrong' bracelet?

-mike

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Mike,

You make some good points. Indeed, the Kenyans, Ethiopians, the Morrocans all work hard, very hard. I don't dispute that for a second.

Others don't all run with "crappy-form" there are great form runners everywhere. I was just saying that at this speed( very-fast), this group looks very relaxed a smooth. There was a top 10K runner in Canada a few years ago, Paul McKloy. Now , if you had seen this guy run, with no context or pretext, you would have said, that guy can't run. He looks terrible running. Truth of the matter, he came close to breaking the Canadian record for 10K, and still has I believe the best placing of a Canadian runner ever in the long race at the World Cross( top 15 I think). Mcloy made Zatopek look smooth!!, but it worked for him.

I have coached young kids soccer the last few summers. If you want to see pure, uninhibited and unrestricted running check out any soccer tournament with kids less that 10 years old. I just love to watch them run. It's amazing to watch.

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog