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More thoughts on "genetic talent"...
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Spinning off of the “RHR as indicator of genetic talent” post, here are some of my thoughts regarding "genetic expression" and “genetic potential”:

1. Man alone of all the animals is no longer universally subject to the law of survival of the fittest. The more affluent the individual and her society, the less applicable the law. So, even though there are increasingly a lot more people around spreading their genes who, in the wild, likely would not have survived long enough to do so, this flouting of natural law is a relatively recent phenomenon that started to kick in with industrialization about 200 years ago - an eyeblink in evolutionary terms.

2. In the animal realm, where survival of the fittest is king, AFAIK there are not a whole lot of fat or slow gazelles or lions or swallows. The performance differential among these species is, AFAIK, very small. It exists, but it is small.

3. Looking at our cousins in the animal kingdom leads me to conclude that environmental and other non-genetic factors *have* to be more significant than genetic raw material in explaining the drastic differences in physical condition and athletic performance ability among members of our own species. This has to be true for all but those who are descended from a long line of runts who were only able to pass on their genes through luck and social support.

4. Take me, for example. I am what I would call an average to above average athlete. IOW I’m not the son of an unbroken chain of mewling runts nor do I come from a family of all-american athletes. Im the kid who made varsity, even all-conference, but certainly never had the pro scouts sniffing around. If I were a bull I would not be champion breeding stock, but neither would I be made into glue.

Now I mentioned in another post that, even though I have unlimited time to train at the moment, I have found it quite challenging to be able to train like a pro - to put in those hours at that intensity and consistent quality. But I did not say I felt genetically and permanently unable to make that transition. Indeed, I have noticed huge gains moving from 10-15hpw of training to 20-25hpw training, especially when the remainder of my week is devoted 100% to recovering for my next training session. 2 years ago I could not break into a run without my HR leaping to 155+bpm. My “steady” pace (i.e., not walking) was around 9mins/mile. Now my steady pace is 8mins/mile at ~150bpm. A slow jog for me now is 8:30-8:45/mile at a HR of 140-45. I know that this is nothing compared to pro performance, but most pros usually get started on this training regime at an incredibly young age so, regardless of genetic makeup, at the moment I’m like a 5th grader trying to play on the varsity team. Now I may never be able to cruise aerobically at 6:30/mile but I could see 7:30. If I got to 7:30, could I then see 7:15? And remember that genetically I am by no means a "natural" distance runner - I am more of a linebacker - and yet my body and its genes have the elasticity and potential to change in response to training load over time. The difference I feel is even less in the water and on the bike. I have only been swimming for 2 years and already I am in the 1:0x ballpark for 2.4mile TT. I could definitely see reaching 0:5x if I continued my present efforts over the next 2-5 years. I could imagine similar gains on the bike – Again, not reaching top pro performance, but not falling far off, either. Kind of like the small but distinct difference between the average deer in the herd (me) and the speedy alpha buck (cam brown).

4. I recognize that in any group of people with similar backgrounds – say a class of 12th graders - you will have the “natural” athletic standouts, the average dudes, and the “hopeless” athletic rejects. But are those weaker players genetically doomed to inferiority? Or do they just prefer to play chess or eat Doritos than to wear speedos and run Yasso 800s? Or do they just have a (not illogical) aversion to hard physical work and pain? I just don’t think humans have been flouting the law of survival of the fittest for long enough for genes to be the central culprit in explaining difference in athletic ability. If you ever are unable to shake the depressing thought that maybe "you didn't choose the right parents", think of what an absolute miracle it is that you are even alive to have this thought at all. Every one of your ancestors through time back to Adam or the primordial ooze was fit enough, smart enough, and lucky enough to win the race of life and propagate their genes. Every one of us represent the sum total of millions of years of uninterrupted success.

5. I accept that it will be easier for the ones who, for whatever reason, show exceptional talent an early age to become a world-class athlete, and it may even be safe to assume that they will have more top-end potential than more "ordinary" or “less-gifted” bretheren. But I think that the difference at this top end of human athletic potential (i.e., the combined limit of our genetic structure and environment and desire) is a LOT less than commonly assumed. It is simply the case that very few people in modern society ever unlock even a tiny fraction of their true genetic potential. Here I go back to the image of the herd of deer or flock of swallows - Yes there will be the studs and the stand-outs in the group – but where fitness and physical performance is a matter of life and death it seems that every member of the herd can develop to an exceedingly high level the amazing machine that is the animal body.

6. To co-opt a quote from Henry Ford: "If you think that you are unalterably genetically inferior to other people and that what is holding you back is your genetic makeup or if you think that you are not genetically inferior and that what is holding you back is insufficient persistance, hard work and determination, you are probably right." I just don't see any cash value in adopting or espousing genetic determinism.
Last edited by: johnthesavage: Feb 1, 05 16:05
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Re: More thoughts on "genetic talent"... [johnthesavage] [ In reply to ]
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You have too much free time.
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Re: More thoughts on "genetic talent"... [jhendric] [ In reply to ]
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hey man - ST time counts as recovery time. My legs are elevated! ;) And for me, all time is free!
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Re: More thoughts on "genetic talent"... [johnthesavage] [ In reply to ]
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Touche.
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Re: More thoughts on "genetic talent"... [johnthesavage] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, is that the preface of a book you are writing? Good stuff. A few points I'd like to add my .02 to:

Survival of the fittest is still prevalent today, just not as it was before. In the past, environmental conditions were the major forces shaping evolution. Today, through technology, we have successfully "controled" many of these shaping forces. What still is at play is the fact that if you eat Doritos and sit on the couch and get really fat, the chances of you spreading your genes are less, especially in today's society. Also, you can be really smart and successful (in dollar terms) and really fat and unhealthy these days. Any unhealthy choice you make shortens your life and that decreases the chances of creating offspring. Eventually, over millions of years, all unhealthy genes will filter themselves out.

I think out of all sports, endurance sports are the one that most have the chance to be successful at if they really tried, regardless of genes. Many of us will never be world class sprinters if we weren't born with a high percentage of FT fibers. But most of us do have the genetic capability to become good endurance athletes if we make the right choices. As somewhat of an example of this, check out www.coachgordo.com and read his history. He was a dude like many of us at one time. He was active but not anything worldclass until he decided to pursue his potential. He does everything one needs to do to maximize himself daily (for the sport of IM) and as a result has raised himself to one of the best. I believe if you took a sample of people from all over the world, fat, skinny, tall, short and each made all the same moves Gordo did over the past few years, many of them would be at a surprisingly high level that we probably never thought possible. Genetic differences are always at play and will determine our limits to some extent, but not as much as most of us think. We all can develop vascularity, more effective st fibers, more aerobic enzymes, efficient pedal strokes, strides and swim strokes. We could all eat better and train more. The choices we make not to do this optimally is what is really holding us back.
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Re: More thoughts on "genetic talent"... [johnthesavage] [ In reply to ]
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The faster you get the more likely your speed is a result of hard training. the slower you are the more likely your lack of speed is a result of poor genetics.

Somewhere in between lies the truth.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
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Re: More thoughts on "genetic talent"... [johnthesavage] [ In reply to ]
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"from a long line of runts who were only able to pass on their genes through luck and social support"

did you get ahold of my family tree during some of your recovery time?
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Re: More thoughts on "genetic talent"... [Russ Brandt] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Survival of the fittest is still prevalent today,


Not so sure I can agree. Even those who would have been evolutionary losers a few hundered years ago can just find some other loser to mate with.

At least that's the hope that keeps me going ;)

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Re: More thoughts on "genetic talent"... [johnthesavage] [ In reply to ]
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Coupla thangs: First, glad you're going to be writing to us back here in the real world, we enjoy it! But, when you wrote: "...my body and its genes have the elasticity and potential to change in response to training load over time", you were correct until you wrote "genes". You have a set genotype...that doesn't change. Your body, however, does change...that's known as your phenotype.

Someone else in this thread wrote that unhealthy practices eventually result in the elimination of a set of genes. Not so. Practices that result in improper reproduction rates will result in the elimination of a set of genes. "Healthy" isn't neccessarily tied to genetic propogation.

I agree that survival of the Physically Fittest has be interupted by modern man...nice insight. There is a new "Fitness" test that is just as important, though, and it relies heavily on technology in many areas of the world. Unlike the survival of the physically most-fit, the technology we use to survive may actually be our ultimate undoing...as we pollute ourselves to death, and/or annihilate one another (and therefore ourselves) with some mighty weapons.

Keep on training and writing!



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
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Re: More thoughts on "genetic talent"... [johnthesavage] [ In reply to ]
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I accessed the following article through Cambridge Scientific Abstracts so I don't dare post the text. It seems to document something similar in bacteria populations:

Amzallag, GN. Adaptive changes in bacteria: a consequence of nonlinear transitions in chromosome topology? Journal of Theoretical Biology, Vol. 229, no. 3, pp. 361-369. 7 Aug 2004.

If someone "in the know" would enlighten me that would be great.
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Re: More thoughts on "genetic talent"... [Titan] [ In reply to ]
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"Someone else in this thread wrote that unhealthy practices eventually result in the elimination of a set of genes. Not so. Practices that result in improper reproduction rates will result in the elimination of a set of genes. "Healthy" isn't neccessarily tied to genetic propogation."

I think that was me. Aren't we saying the same thing? You say "practices that result in improper reproduction rates" while I just called that "unhealthy" practices. To me, anything that I consider "unhealthy" will eventually keep one from propagating somewhere down the line.
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Re: More thoughts on "genetic talent"... [Russ Brandt] [ In reply to ]
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R&B wrote: To me, anything that I consider "unhealthy" will eventually keep one from propagating somewhere down the line.


Maybe we are saying the same thing, as long as you are meaning "as a group" and not one individual.

For example, having unprotected sex with multiple partners isn't considered to be healthy because of the risk of disease (if you are a praying mantis or some spiders, it isn't healthy because the female might eat you), but, this unhealthy behavior certainly increases your chance of genetic propagation. In humans, this is easier to see from the male point of view, partly because they have zero risk of death during childbirth...unless they are in the delivery room ;-D , the laboring female can be a threat to your life.

Multiple childbirth isn't nearly as safe for an individual female, but, having a litter of children IS better for genetic propagation for that female. If she dies prematurely due to having so many children, her children may be litter-bearers (pun) too, or, they may not have children if they are scared because of seeing their mother die in childbirth. Too hard to predict, but the choices made by her progeny affect their genetic propagation. Also, AS A GROUP, overpopulation can be devastating, depending upon resultant pollution levels, food and other resource availability, disease, and anti-social behavior (war, murder, suicide) that occurs due to overcrowding/overcompeting for resources.

It's the old story of what is good for the individual may not be good for the group. It's a great idea for an individual to save money, but saving money isn't as good for the economy of the group, BUT, bigger economies aren't neccesarily good for the environment...unless the wealth is used to correct waste product handling. This is one reason many bacterial colonies are self-limiting, they languish in their own local waste, and that hurts reproductive capability.

Anyway, I suspect most of this isn't as interesting to most of the readers, as is Andrew's writing about being a tri-bum.



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
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Re: More thoughts on "genetic talent"... [caleb] [ In reply to ]
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caleb, first, I didn't read the article, so, it may contain information with which I'm unfamiliar. From the title, I'm assuming they are talking about how populations of bacteria change their genetic coding over a period of time in response to their environment....AND, it seems to happen in fits and spurts, not just a gradual change, i.e., mutations.

Still, there's a big difference between an individual's genetics and a population's genetics. Individual genetics are set, population's genetic aren't...due to natural selection as well as mutation....two very different ways of potential adaptation...the mutation strategy is more luck than skill, and is often not successful. The natural selection course is more conducive to uncovering successful adaptations...as long as not too many are killed before adaptation occurs.



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
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Re: More thoughts on "genetic talent"... [johnthesavage] [ In reply to ]
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Consider this - is there a genetic component to the psychological ability to train long, hard and consistent?
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Re: More thoughts on "genetic talent"... [johnthesavage] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting thoughts:

1. I think that the genetic component of how well we do or what potentail we have as athletes can be looked at in two ways - physical and mental. The physical one is obvious: To do well in certain sports you need to have a certain physical build. You also need to have a certain type of physiology. On the mental side you need to be able to focus on training and you need to know how to deal with the stresses and strains of competition.

2. For the last three years I have coached my son in kids soccer. He's 8 now and it's remarkable now watching kids that age run around a soccer field. Some clearly get it. They move smoothly and with purpose. When you show and explain something to them they can do it almost right away. There are others kids who just don't seem with it or engaged at all.

3. The normal development of an endurance athlete from early years to peak years is as follows: Start in early mid teens - move up to national level by age 18 - 20. If dedicated and talented enough move onto the college ranks and then if they can take it to the next level to the international level by age 23 - 24. Then if they have the wherewithall, they can have 10 years or so at the top. That's 15+ years of development. That's a lot of miles in the aerobic bank. It is rare for an athlete to start later in life and reach the true international level. Athletes that do start late, will have a chronological age and a training age - how many years have they been training moderately hard to hard.

Fleck


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: More thoughts on "genetic talent"... [johnthesavage] [ In reply to ]
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Well, I recently found a web site that had a lot of information about genetics in sports and i remember one fact that stood out:

496 of the top 500 times ever recorded in the 100M dash were run by folks whose ancestors come from West African decent.

I know someone already mentioned fast twitch fibres, and we are mostly discussing endurance athletics here, but its food for thought.

I'll post the website if i find it again.



-Erik

"I don't half-ass anything. For me its either whole-ass or nothing." -elake
Last edited by: elake: Feb 2, 05 7:26
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Re: More thoughts on "genetic talent"... [elake] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah and 100% of all records are from people from East Africa descent...

-
"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com
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Re: More thoughts on "genetic talent"... [smartasscoach] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, I know, I didn't do the study, and I don't know any further details.



-Erik

"I don't half-ass anything. For me its either whole-ass or nothing." -elake
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Re: More thoughts on "genetic talent"... [elake] [ In reply to ]
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It was an "evolutionary" joke... :-)

-
"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com
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Re: More thoughts on "genetic talent"... [elake] [ In reply to ]
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I think it was an article at Peak Performance Online. Essentially ALL the top sprint times in the 100, 200 and 400m dashes, and almost ALL the top athletes in sports where explosive fast-twitch performance is key( football, soccer, basketball) can trace their routes back to West Africa. Similarly, just about ALL of the top times from the 5000m to the marathon can find their roots in East Africa( Ethiopia and Kenya).

Only two white men have broken 13 minutes in the 5K( Bob Kennedy and Craig Mottram) whereas, it seems many top Kenyan and Ethiopian runners do this at will. Interesting stuff when you look at the numbers. Not sure what it says, but it says something.

Fleck


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: More thoughts on "genetic talent"... [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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SACoach, I got the joke, i chuckled at my desk :)

Fleck, yes that was the website because i also remember the article saying that 60 percent of all long distance international running races are won by people of east african decent.



-Erik

"I don't half-ass anything. For me its either whole-ass or nothing." -elake
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Re: More thoughts on "genetic talent"... [caleb] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I accessed the following article through Cambridge Scientific Abstracts so I don't dare post the text. It seems to document something similar in bacteria populations:

Amzallag, GN. Adaptive changes in bacteria: a consequence of nonlinear transitions in chromosome topology? Journal of Theoretical Biology, Vol. 229, no. 3, pp. 361-369. 7 Aug 2004.

If someone "in the know" would enlighten me that would be great.


Interesting article... something similar to that does happen in humans during an immune response. Bascially the gene coding for the antigen-(virus, bacteria, etc)-binding region of a protein on your lymphocytes becomes hypermutable. The cells where the mutation makes it bind the antigen better will proliferate whereas the ones where the mutation makes the cells bind weakly don't and eventualyl die. Thus you end up with a group of lymphocytes that are better at fighting the infection that you originally started with.

This strategy works well where you have a bunch of cells (whether bacteria or lymphocytes) that are floating around, and you can afford to mutate them and keep the better ones and get rid of the bad ones. It seems to me to make much less sense when talking about cells in a solid organ. For one thing, most cells in your body cannot proliferate any more, so there's not way for the "good" mutants to expand their numbers to compensate for the "bad" mutants you get.

So if your heart is stressed by training, to me it makes much more sense for every cells to make more enzymes, contractile proteins, etc... that it does for those cells to become hypermutable with fairly unpredictable outcomes.

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Re: More thoughts on "genetic talent"... [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]Only two white men have broken 13 minutes in the 5K( Bob Kennedy and Craig Mottram) whereas, it seems many top Kenyan and Ethiopian runners do this at will. Interesting stuff when you look at the numbers. Not sure what it says, but it says something. [/reply]

Umm.. it says that E. Africans are currently dominant ? Run the same numbers in the 1920s, and you'd conclude that all the best distance runners are of Scandinavian descent.

It's an historical-sociological artefact, that's all. Give an age class of white boys the same training and environment as the E Africans are getting, and they would be world-beaters too.

On the question of fat unfit Americans producing fat unfit children: note that the Lamarckian theory of inheritance of acquired characteristics does not have much supporting evidence. That is, since most fat Americans are fat because of bad diet and lack of exercise, rather than pre-existing genetic dispositions (this is known because of the sudden onset of obesity in the US), their children can still choose to be fat or fit. Of course the unfortunate beasts will be growing up in an environment of TV, advertising, and fast food: but that's a cultural problem not a genetic one.

Speaking as an erstwhile 'hopeless athletic reject', I think training, at least in the endurance sports, can raise almost anyone to 'above-average'.

"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview
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