Me too!!! I leave in 28 days!!!!!!

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

I'm so bummed. I head to Switzerland on the 19th for the IM on the 27th. All of the Alps stages are about a week before around the 13th. I really wanted to go out for the IM and catch a couple of stages of the tour, but I've got too much going on this year to take that much time off work. I can't imagine a better year to be on the Alp D'Huez. Have fun, the trip will be a blast.

Pantani will be dropped like a used snot rag.

there are 2 double standards...one for the trash talk, one for the dope.
Pantani had the italian carabineri after him for doping, nothing was found, nothing was proved, he once had his hematocrit at 60% and this was found after a horrific crash during a race, and most experts said, there is no way that proved anything.
then he was at 51% after 3 mountain top finishes over 2200m and was tested just at the finish..why? as everyone know when you are dehydrated, your HCT is higher...

Lance had the french police after him for 2 years for a bag dropped far away from the room. for packs of actogevin found in the rooms of USPS...nothing was found. nothing was proved. Lance was cleared and here noone says crap on Lance and dope....

so there is a double standard for Pantani. like him or not (personnally I don't) but both cases are the same, they were accused and nothing was found or proven (and all experts know that the HCT test for EPO is crap).

One very basic difference to bear in mind here: Climbing is power-to-weight ratio. TT'ing is sustainable power, period.

Have both (plus the ability to recover), and you are a always going to be a threat in the GC. Have only the former -- in large part because the denominator part of that ratio is so unusually low -- and you are not.

"Dancing on the pedals" on a major climb? Why is that so captivating -- if you are a grown man and weigh roughly what Olga Korbut did?

Give me Indurain doggedly powering his 80+ kilos up a major climb and dropping countless smaller guys by the top any day. Far, far more impressive.

BTW: still waiting for ANYONE here to cite me one major stage race that Marco ever won against highest calibre competition, and in which you can unassailably argue that he was clean throughout and his hemocrit level stable and within normal limits.

Pantani yacks trash for the same reason Virenque used to: because if he says it loud and often enough, casual fans (espec. those of his own nationality) might believe he's actually a threat to finish a 3-week race on the podium. Many others have done the same thing once they were well past their sell-by date, but Pantani's bluster is particularly annoying because its so overstated (and because, like Virenque, Vandenbrouke, and various other vicitms of their own lack of character, he actually tries to portray himself as a victim).

More to the point, Panatani yacks that way because he's sure doing so will induce some fool to pay him way, way more than he's currently worth as a team leader.

"BTW: still waiting for ANYONE here to cite me one major stage race that Marco ever won against highest calibre competition, and in which you can unassailably argue that he was clean throughout and his hemocrit level stable and within normal limits. "



Pantani won the Tdf in 98 with Ullrich present and as on all the other occasions without failing any controls. Remember that many europeans ar as suspicious of Armstrong as you are of Pantani.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

It's pointless to argue because you're right, they were both accused, but nothing was proven. However, in my mind there is a huge difference between being being accused of having drugs and actually testing positive in a drug test. As far as I'm concerned, the two don't hardly compare.

well, the problem is that Pantani never tested positive...a hematocrit above 50% is not a positive test; and is not seen as such by the UCI either. they see it as a health reason to prevent a rider from starting a bike race for 2 weeks.
each time he was, it was after circumstances that can easily induced way higher HCT. in particular; it was the first titme a rider was tested just after a race, and in this case; the only time it happened...strange.

and his Doc was Ferrari and in spite of never testing positive he should be considered dirty????????????? But Lance because he is American, nearly died from Cancer and his Doctor was Ferrari should be considered clean.

This sounds an awful lot like the Testa situation, prehaps a little prejudice in involved here? I think the Euro's would question LA's cleanliness as much as passionate US cycling fans question Pantani.

There are on the whole more knowledgeable fans there than here and I dont think that the people questioning LA are simply the fringe that dont know much, they are serious fans.

There are clear links between the guy that is about to stand trial for distributing performance enhancing drugs and LA. Now you almost have to suspend belief to believe that this Doc supplied drugs to all of these other riders but when LA saw him it was purely for medical advice OR he did not supply drugs to these other riders. Either way the riders brought up here did not test +ve so its just as much of witch hunt about the foreigners as it is for them about the Americans.

Look when all is said and done the thing that clouds everyones judgement is that it is ez to speculate about what these fella's have been doing. The Americans think that the leading Europeans are on the whole dirty and dont like the fact that a clean American is beating them at their own game, the Europeans have a serious issue with the fact that a guy that nearly died and associated with the biggest drug supplier in the peleton has been winning the thing year in and year out, what are you going to do.

Fact remains Uhlrich and Pantani have won the tours against strong fields, both can climb and both if they were in shape are concerns, Pantani's not necessarily a huge concern but he could certainly be irksome when combined with the others.

All this BS talk about what he may or may not have done is no different than the French Lynch Mob that spent 2 years investigating LA, it's BS.

You know people are taking drugs but until they fail a control they get to race and you should consider them clean, because considering them dirty makes them guilty until proven innocent and I did not think that was the way it worked.

Bjorn -- you're not seriously introduce as evidence on P's behalf the farce that was the '98 Tour here, are you?

In what sense was that even a race? On again, off again, maybe let's call the whole thing off, no, let's finish it off to Paris anyway, etc. etc.

Remeber the plaintive photo of Pantani sitting on the road in the leaders' jersey "leading" a riders' protest -- looking just as disgusted and confused as the rest of the world was by that point? Endless midnight raids and sleepless nights for the racers -- sure, that's conducive to a test of whose the strongest.

More to the point: aside from Jan (who had one catastrophic day in the mountains that cost him the win), where was the "highest calibre competition" in 1998? It was already pretty thin on the start line. Then the Spanish teams, for example, typically packed and went home mid-race. Literally -- not just figuratively.

Saying folks like me are "suspicious" of Pantani is incorrect and frankly too kind to him -- that suggests there's some element of doubt involved in the assessment. Let's call it clearheaded and analytical.

Have watched and assessed him since he was the cocky understudy to the (similarly self-impressed) Chiapucchi (another one given to hyperbolizing his occasional flashes of form and audacity into worl-beating legend). It's always been pretty clear what Pantani is, and what he is not. What he is NOT is a GC threat to LA. But don't (as some others here have) sell Botero short. And if Beloki ever hits the Tour in top form (and learnes to be audacious enough to actually LAUNCH -- rather than respond to -- attacks), don't sell him short either.

Then I think the Tour title is headed east -- to a very talented young Russian (or possibly, Ukrainian) who will become its next patron...

the kettle black, Claudio, Jamodolene (could never spell that mo fo's name but he was the one that tanked at the end of the tour on the CE), Migel????????? all the way back to Tommy Simpson have, if not, taken PED, been suspected of it, certainly some more than others.

What I love though is the complete disregard for the fact that there is an equal amount of suspicion surrounding LA as there is about Pantani, its just being American things are seen through rose tinted glasses.

Both have been tested, both are clean??????? for all intense and purposes, both had the same goddam physician which is hysterical when you see who he prescribed medications to and yet one is guilty and the other innocent.

Go to Europe and see what the view of Pantani is and the view of LA is, I know the Euro cycling press dont know what they are talking about and neither do the fans.

I'm not saying LA is dirty and Pantani clean, my gut tells me it is certainly the reverse but I also know that history has shown cycling to be an incredibly dirty sport and clean tests dont mean anything other than no drugs were detected, or no drugs they tested for were detected.

I think you have to be pragmatic enough to realize that there is a possibility that people you think are clean are dirty and those you think are dirty are now clean, Vandenbroke appears to deserve a break at least he's tried to get his shit together.

That said I dont think Pantani is a contended my contention is that he is irksome when combined with the others to prevent LA from winning, anyway hopefully I will be there based on whats transpired recently, I should certainly be there for the start its only a couple of hours from home, Ola, bring it.

Will leave the specious assertion about Indurain using performance enhancing drugs (even if followed with a "???????") gather the dust it deserves; ditto the allegation that what is driving all this is the beholder's own nationality (sorry -- I'm not Texan :-) )

As regards Pantani, what I am alleging is actually far more damning -- at least in his moral view of the world -- than it would be had my point been to assert that Pantani was a doper.

The asertion is that -- squeaky clean or not -- Pantani is simply not enough of a talent to be a threat on the GC of a major stage race. End of story.

To Armstrong, to Botero, to Aitor Gonzalez, or to several others who come quickly to mind. He might have been at some point in the past, but even then, only under optimal conditions and only just barely.

The only people who seem to believe otherwise are: a) Pantani himself (though even that is questionable), and b) whatever fool is paying his inflated salary these days.

Provided you can climb and are a flyweight, winning one or two mountain stages of the TdF is not that great a deal -- provided your only goal is to win one or two mountain stages. If you have a more significant goal -- like actually winning the RACE -- you'll focus on what's necessary to accomplish that instead.

I come back to what I said originally: I can't imagine that the Posties will lose much sleep over Marco's appearance at the start line, or waste much energy covering his moves. Lance's mountain posse (Heras, Rubiera, Beltran) will save that for far more significant threats than that posed by the 2003 Elefantino.

No shame in targeting a few stages -- just as there's no shame in gunning for the best climber polka dot jersey or the Giro's Inter-Giro one. Any of these goals, if achieved, is a worthy accomplishment on its own terms. Nothing less, and nothing more.

But if that's your goal, don't go saying ludicrous stuff like "I can be a threat to Lance" or "he should be worried about me". Empty bragadoccio like that just makes MP look lame, vain, and above all, self-deluded.

lets see 14th in a major stage race and anyone from reading this might think it had been the US Pro Championships or a local crit.

Lets face it, with or without all of the major players, its not like a three week tour is a bunch of hacks riding beach cruisers.

Is he a serious contender? probably not, can he cause issues? potentially yes.

Plus he won the Giro at a time when the field was stronger and people had not adopted the LA approach of focusing solely on one event at the expense exclusively of the other tours.

That approach has been around since long before Lance.

Millar got 3rd or 4th at the CDAlpes yesterday. Interesting that he would place so well in a climbers race as we all know he can TT. Maybe he is trying to make up for last year's fiasco in Spain? Does anyones know if he actually will be contesting the TDF this year?

Great -- so in a Lance-less, Jan-less, Botero-less race, he might have been able to finish as high as 10th. No wonder "Lance should be worried".

Do you realize you're saying the same thing I did, which is that he's essentially no GC threat in the TdF these days (despite his assertions otherwise).

Did Marco cut me off is traffic? No. Although his car driving skills -- like Jan's -- are pretty scary.

On distances up to 20km or so with flat roads -- though admittedly on no other -- he'd first have to catch me to do so. Not holding my breath that he could. :-)

As I said at the outset, I'm glad he's racing the Tour, 'cause the final GC will itself demonstate that he can talk the talk, but not walk the walk. I wish him well on his turf (the mountain stage finishes), 'cause he'll get totally buried in the TTs and the "rouleur" stages.

Why can't he be a bit classy (like, say, Thierry Claveyrolat was) and say something like: "I'm a threat in the hills, though virtually nowhere else"?

Then his self-promoting talk would be fine -- rather than lame.

My contention was never that he was a threat to win but that with working with others that he could play a role in lance not winning.

I think I've said all the way through that Lance will have a harder time trying to beat all the other teams if they work together against him.

Pantani is indeed nowhere near the shape he was at before his comeback. that said, your knowledge of cycling history is quite dusty.
Pantani in 98 won the Tour (with noone according to what you said...damn it, i should have raced then...) and the giro just before...
he won to Alex Zulle by the way who if you remove the 6' he lost on Passage du Gois in the TdF99 is the man who finished closest to LA in the Tour (1')
and actually finished AHEAD of Zulle in a Flat TT
(so I' be curious to see you stay ahead of him even on a flat TT)...of course, riding in Italy with the pink jersey in the last TT gives you wings.

that said; I agree, at this stage, he is no threat considering ho easily Simoni shook him off his wheel in the giro, BUT he was just back and many riders can get their shape back very fast by racing.

eventually; we still have to wait to see if he is going to race in the TdF anyway, but as you said, I doubt he will be anywhere near the front of the GC

about respect...
the guy won one giro, one TdF (and you can only beat those that are there!) finished 3rd at the worlds in Duitama, despite the BS of the journalists, he never tested positive to anything, he came back from several horrific crashes, he gave cycling fans some pretty exciting stages in the Tours...

so like him or hate him, but show the guy a little respect instead of saying "he is a nobody who is finished and can't ride to save is life " (in substance)

Francois, mon copain... :-)

a) On the topic of "dusty history", Marco didn't 'best' Zuelle in the '98 Tour -- Alex took a powder the moment the race crossed the border into Switzerland (and thus exceeded the grasp of les flics francaises). Or did you mean that he beat Zuelle in the Giro (which he did)?

b) I don't think I said he couldn't win a stage or two in the high country -- or that that in itself was not an accomplishment -- in fact, I said exactly the opposite in both respects. Just wish he would say the same thing, rather than try to puff himself up as a threat in the GC to grab some extra lira.

c) on the TT thing (all this is about Marco, but you hinted scepticism): just last Sunday, I raced the first 15km of a 40 km USCF race (flatted shortly thereafter) at 48.24 kph pace. If Marco were to start off 1:00 behind me (as they do in stage race TT's), he'd have to motor at 51 kph to "catch me" in that distance. And if he were he highly placed on the GC (2' between starts), he'd need >54kph. Still like my chances. PS: am 51 years old, so don't tell me he's past his prime. :-)

he indeed went faster than to Zulle in the last TT of the giro in 98.

I thought your previous post was meant to say you would beat him..

Nope -- only that he'd first have to "catch me" (used that wording carefully :-) ). There's a reason he's a pro and I'm not.

From www.procycling.com's site earlier today:

Tour omission at root of Pantani's depression?

"Marco Pantani's father, Ferdinando Pantani, has told Italian daily La Gazzetta dello Sport that one of the reasons his son has been admitted to a clinic to treat depression and drug addiction is because of his failure to gain an invite to the centenary Tour de France..."

Drug addiction?

Substance abuse ain't ever even the slightest bit funny and you want to be sympathetic.

But is anyone else tiring of the "Pantani -- the eternal victim" schtick?